Team Fencing

[Rolls]

Does anyone know where I can find a good description of the format of a team fencing tournament?

I've never been to one and am only vaguely familiar with how they work. Once of the local clubs in my area is hosting one, which I will be attending this weekend.

Thanks,
Rolls.

[DHCJr]

Go to the USFA Web Site. Click on 'Info for members', then 'Forms' and then'Official Scoresheets . . .'. You will find instructions and forms at the bottom of the page for Team Competitions.

[Rolls]

Thanks, DHCJr. That was helpful.

It did leave me with a few questions.

1) Are there pools at a team event? (I'm guessing no. But how are the initial team match-ups determined?)
2) The process described seems to be one team against another. Will that be repeated all the way down the DE tree?

Rolls.

[rory]

Yes, there often are pools. Frequently pools of four or three. This determines the seeding, then it's DE from there.

All bouts (pool and DE) are to 45 in the relay system as described.

[DHCJr]

What the USFA uses is the Relay Format. There are other formats, but since they are basically the same as indiviual, with the only difference being the individual are teams.

For example at the Western NCAA's, they treat it as one pool of however many teams there are. Let us say there was 6 teams. Take a pool sheet for individuals, but for the names put in the school name. This would be the final score between each team. The actual team bouts would be 9 individual bouts with each fencer on one team, fencing each fencer on the other team.

If someone wanted to they could combine the two methods of pool and relay, if they wanted to.

[Rolls]

Ok. I have to apologize for my slow wittedness. I'm still a little confused, but I'm sure I will be able to work it out (by reading and re-reading).

It helps for me to think of one bout as ALL the mini-bouts (individual) that make up the relay (team). I guess it just seems like a lot of fencing to me. Not that I'm complaining.

How often do people have team events in other locations. In Alabama, it is pretty much unheard of. We're kind of trying it out as a novelty, but I think there are some advantages.

For one, I think it is a good way to let some less experienced fencers get to experience competition. I feel a lot of new fencers are apprehensive because they don't want to come in last place or perform poorly. But with a team event they could participate with better fencers on their team, gain experience, and still (as a team) place fairly well. It would let them get their feet wet without the crushing disappointment of being on the bottom end of the results.

Rolls.

[DHCJr]

This may confuse you more, but don't consider the relay format as a number of mini-bouts. I would consider what the colleges do as mini-bouts. You should consider the relay format as a large direct elimination bout.

For example if you get to the last period of the bout down 14 - 0. you can still win. This is the same with relay format. If in the first 8 bouts your team loses 5 - 0. The score may be 40 - 0 against you, but there is a chance you can still win.

If this was a college competition, your team would have already lost when the other team won their fifth win.

[picojeff]

A team match is called a match, and the 9 bouts in a match are each called a bout.

I have never seen a senior team competition that had pools. They have always been DEs from the get-go.

At US Nationals, the team competition is seeded based on whatever formula the USFA thinks up that year, always somehow based on the individual results of the team members that week. If you want to base your seeding on ratings, you might give a numeric value to each one, e.g., U=1, E=2, D=4, C=8, B=16, A=32, add up the ratings of the three highest fencers on each team and seed based on that. (I don't know if that will work perfectly, it's just the first thing I thought of.)

[edew]

It is possible to run the team matches in pools. Some local qualifying team tournaments (qualifiers to Nationals, say) are run in pools. If there are four teams, say, teams A, B, C, and D, then you just run a pool of 4:

A vs B and C vs D at the same time.
Then A vs C and B vs D, then A vs D and B vs C. It'll take about three hours to run that. Some might require a fence-off in case of ties in the victory (especially for first place).

USFA doesn't do that at the national level because a) some events like women's foil don't have that many teams contending, and b) some events like men's epee have a lot of teams contending. It could take an awful long time to run a decent number of pools, and then move to DEs. Ugh.

[MyraTrue]

I like the way Edew has summed that up.

As to the question about how common team events are, I'd have to say it depends on who you fence with. University level fencing (NCAA, I belive), at least in the midwest, was all team. We had individual opens, but everything that was intercollegiate was team. In a semester, it would be something like 7 team... 3 open?

We always had ours run in the match format- 3 fencers per team, everone fences everyone (9 bouts total). To be the winning team in a match, you have to win the majority of the bouts- at least 5. I believe they ran the teams in a DE format, based on wins and losses at previous tournaments. This way, you didn't have one of the newer teams stuck against Notre Dame for their first match.

Team events can be a really good time. While friends will cheer for you in an individual, having an entire team, sometimes multiple weapon/gender teams from your club behind you is something of a power trip. And it gives you a chance to improve your fencing, lose a few, and still win.

[pammie003]

We have more team events than indivdual where I am too. I fence at the university level in Ontario. We, however, use the first team to reach 45 format. We switched from the best out of 9 about 5 years ago as I understand it.

Team has the advantage of moral support. It keeps the stress level down, and gives you some people who are on the same schedule as you to hang out with during the day. Plus, if you're just starting out, it means more fencing than you get at an individual tournament. You are guaranteed approx. 9 bouts (pools of 3 + 1 DE).

[fence1848]

Originally posted by picojeff
I have never seen a senior team competition that had pools. They have always been DEs from the get-go.

Jeff,
Did they change the format of the Commonwealth Games this year? Those have been run as 1-pool only (no DE) of team matches every time I've fenced in it.

Seems like time constraints are the primary factor in determining format. Pool format is great, because it means that everyone fences with everyone else. For qualifying tournaments, however, DE only is better, although you can do repechage if the event is smaller.

In general, though, team matches aren't done at the local level often because of limited resources. Especially when other fencers assist in directing a match, it is difficult, since 6-8 fencers will be occupied with each match, and each match can last a very long time. If you're going to do a team competition, don't skimp on hiring referees who are not fencing!

[fence1848]

On another note, that reminds me - the format used at the Commonwealth Games is a great format for fun fencing - especially for fencers new to competitive fencing. Here's how it works:

Everyone signs up for the team event as an individual. Hopefully, the total number is divisible by 3. If not, recruit 1 or 2 people to fence that weapon to even things out. Sort the seeding in order, but instead of seeding everyone into pools of 6 or 7, seed them into "groups" of 3. Ignore club conflicts. These groups will be the teams. Because this method is intended to balance the pools evenly, it wil balance each team evenly. You should have 1 advanced, 1 intermediate, and 1 relatively new fencer on each team. This format is very cool because you get to team with people you haven't necessarily met before, but who want to help you to do well, so you learn a lot from each of them.

Try it out some time!

[MyraTrue]

I've never seen that format, but it sounds like it could have some certain good points!

I've fenced with the first to 45, and a good strong fencer can bring you back even if you have an inexperienced fencer, as long as you set it up so they fence last. I almost feel that this is a larger pressure cooker team style thought. When you have a lead, you can lose it very easily if you can't deal with ONE fencer. But it is fun, no matter.

I'm fencing team this weekend too, and may just get mixed in with a couple of fencers I've never met. We'll see how it goes.

[Marcos]

Teams made up of strangers sounds like good fun, get to meet people, and not take things too seriously.

Myself, I only really enjoy the sport when there is something to play for - whether it is a little plastic medal or I am representing club or country.

In some way I prefered the old 9 bouts, first team to win 5 rather than the italian relay (first to 45) as you knew exactly how well you had done - I find now in the first to 45 system that I have little idea how many points I won or lost. Probably better for team spirit, but fencing is an individual sport at the end of the day

[picojeff]

Originally posted by fence1848
Did they change the format of the Commonwealth Games this year? Those have been run as 1-pool only (no DE) of team matches every time I've fenced in it.

Oh, um... you're right! The Virginia Commonwealth Games have the fun team event (as described by fence1848), that is one big pool, with no DEs.

The sort-of-fairly assembled teams are a great tradition at the Commonwealth Games. You get to fence with people you've maybe seen around but possibly never talked to. The less experienced fencers get the benefit of direct coaching from a better fencer, and that one-on-one stripside attention over the course of several matches can help improve someone's game more than a year of drills ever would. (Not necessarily technique, just "game", since we're trying to win.)

There is also the team epee/sabre, where they assemble an epee fencer and a sabre fencer into a team. For each match, flip a coin to pick which team decides which weapon to fence first. Fence to 5, switch fencers and continue to 10. Quick and fun. This year since I was the strongest epee fencer, I was paired with the ostensibly weakest sabre fencer (a 13 year old girl who had only fenced sabre one time before). We lucked out on the coin toss and won each match all the way to our last one, when we were forced to fence epee first. I gave her a 5-0 lead, and not only did she hold the lead, she outscored her much older and more experienced opponent! I love team matches! That one match pleased me as much as any other competition I entered last season. And we got gold medals, which is nice too.

I need to push to have the format changed next year to 5-10-5, i.e., epee to 5, sabre to 15 and epee to 20. Or vice-versa depending who wins the coin toss and what they think gives them the advantage. It's twice as long, but I believe it removes the win-the-coin-toss = win-the-bout for a team of a strong epee fencer and a weak sabre fencer vs. a weak epee fencer and a strong sabre fencer.

[rory]

Got totally confused there for a bit - hearing the term "Commonwealth Games" used to describe what's obviously some local-level comp, rather than the "real" Commonwealths!


So what's the Virginia Commonwealth Games then? I take it it's not related to the "proper" 4-yearly international ones!

[picojeff]

Er, yeah. There are a few US states that are each incorporated as a commonwealth, including Massachussetts, Pennsylvania and Virginia. Those that are "states" have State Games. Virginia is officially The Commonwealth of Virginia, and each year holds the Virginia Commonwealth Games. (Though, to keep things confusing, I think there are sometimes also a seperate Virginia State Games.) Not anything like the "real" Commonwealth Games, for that other (slightly more widespread) Commonwealth.

[Rolls]

Man, all the team events sound like not only a lot of fun but also a good experience. I'm going to suggest to some of the people who hold tournaments around here that they should try some team events. I especially like the idea of hosting team events where you're on a team with people you don't know.

One more question, do these tournments effect your rating or is that only effected by individual events?

Rolls.

[MyraTrue]

I've never seen or heard of rankings being given at team events. It was always a push to come out the winning team, but no letters to be had. I actually like this most times.

We have (had?) an epee fencer that could have taken a B without a doubt, but he rarely if ever fenced in an open. He fenced better when a team was riding on him. I watched him beat all three of the Ohio State men's epee team (which was significant to me, having just come from being kicked by their women's epee), winning the men's match against them. But this man has no rating.