best sword

[jjg]

how would the different swords through history compare and do you think kendo is more efficient than fencing?

[Craig]

The swords all were designed for different styles and to deal with different armor and tactics.

The show "Conquest" had a very good overview of the different weapons that the Roman Legions went up against and showed how the gladius was designed to be a great weapon for the specific tactics that the Legions used.

I don't think that you can say any one sword is "better" than another as it all depends on the question "better for what?"

Cheers,
Craig

[Phoenix]

I think probably the rapier was the best because it was the dueling sword.

But if you mean efficient in killing someone, it would have to be kendo because I have a friend who does kendo and they have moves where you chop of someone's hand and slice there stomachs nasty stuff. but I think there foorwork stinks because the have this shuffing movement and you can easily fall if your being stupid. but they aslo can move around more.

[lynx]

I think you have to define your question. All different swords have different uses. The short sword was ideal for fighting in narrow areas, but they were completely useless against strong armors and shields. So long swords or heavy swords were used against such protection. The blood channels in the blade was another improvement to give ease of taking out the sword from the body. Also angled blade provided ease of use and increased efficiency in cutting the tissue. Also rapier was an efficient weapon for duelling.

As for kendo question, again you have to define efficient, but if you mean self defence, it is probably more efficient, since these days you can not carry a sword around.

[Feanor]

Have to agree with many above as the statement begs the question "Efficient for what?"

Both disciplines are most assuredly deadly concerning their practical application in history where the real weapons appropriate to each style was used.

The rapier as a point thrusting weapon against the Katana might have advantages in so much as the lunge would cover quite alot of distance quickly, whereas the more powerful strokes of the Japanese katana would need to close more distance, but have a greater probability of an instantly debilitating strike...

Parries against full power strokes of a Katana might prove quite diffficult, whereas a Japanese swordsman with decent skill might prove effective in parrying repeated rapier thrust...

In the end the two weapons are purpose built not only for the mechanics of the style, and the opponents (armoured/unarmoured etc...) but the mechanics of the philosophy of those trained to use them...

The statement about footwork in the previous post was odd, as Kendo foot movement emphasizes strength and balance and continuous contact with the ground prior to attack as does almost any other fighting discipline. The minor differences in Kendo and Fencing regarding footwork seem centered on the fact that Kendo places slightly more emphasis on the forward motion of attack, rather than the balanced offensive and defensive nature of the classic fencing stance...

Have a good one!

Feanor

[jjg]

Kendo is all attack. The problem I have with japanese sword fighting is when they go to swing you just thrust the epee through them.

[canthidefromme]

Originally posted by jjg
Kendo is all attack. The problem I have with japanese sword fighting is when they go to swing you just thrust the epee through them.

Attack in preparation. Touch fencer.

[pkt]

Originally posted by jjg
how would the different swords through history compare and do you think kendo is more efficient than fencing?

jjg,

For a japanese perspective on your question, for fotographic proof see
http://sword.ne.jp/snjindex.htm
This is a most informative site re REAL swords, Japanese style.

As one who have actually fenced a kendoka using my sabre,
- see
http://www.fencing101.com/Photo_Gall...e=user&page=14
I can report that it's a tie.

"There's only so much one can do with a stick." is my contention.

PK

[Gav]

It would be very difficult, probably impossible, to compare rapier combat with Japanese fighting styles. As has been noted both are very very different. Someone has noted that when someone winds up for a swing in Kendo that you just stick your 'Epee'through them, while true, such a stroke would be unlikely to be a stopping blow. Tha Japanese protagonist would be very capapble of completing his swing and [assuming that the Epeeist didn't retreat in time] deal a blow that at best would be crippling and at worst fatal. Additionally European fencing evolved to deal with unarmoured opponents, I can't see how a European duelling weapon could be expected to pierce a Samurai in full battle array.

As Craig notes, "better for what?".

[Feanor]

Don't get the mistaken impression that Kendo is all about lifting that weapon high high above your head, screaming your lungs out charging forward in reckless abandon and going for that killer blow with all your might that is meant to split your opponent from head to foot... Its not like that at all even though a strike as above successfully delivered would be considered the Nirvana of the Japanese fencer...

Kendo is as much about timing, balance, getting your opponent off balance, surprise and tactics as is modern European fencing. Though steeped more in the spiritual than European fencing, Kendo also teaches and emphasizes lightning quick strikes to the hands as well as parry strikes...

In one of the kendo competitions I watched in college, I stayed to speak to friends afterwards... Someone from the audience was fooling around and they had gotten a hold of a map pointer from somewhere (one of those ones with the black rubber tip...

As a supposed prank gesture he suddenly yelled "hah!" like a swashbuckler of some type in the movies and thrust it at one of the competitors who was actually still in full armor, from my memory it was not a bad thrust either, nothing overly clumsy... The Kendoist sidestepped with very suprising speed made a sweeping motion of his shinai knocking the map pointer aside and then with a quick vertical motion, no more than about a foot at the tip smacked the guys wrist *hard* so that he dropped the pointer and grabbed his wrist seemingly pretending that he wasn;t hurt, but from where I was standing about two dozen feet away the *snap* sound was very loud...

My impression was had that been a real Katana, the guy with the map pointer would have been looking down at one of his severed hands...

Just the odd example of how something like that combat might have gone, but just to shed some light on the fact that Kendo and indeed Japanese fencing with real swords is not always the "suicide run" that alot of people think it to be...

Have a good one!

Feanor

[jjg]

Yes, watch the movie Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence and you can see how efficient kendo is.

[npkeith]

Lynx -

I have been told that the "blood grooves" or fullers are actually there to lighten and stiffen the blade, and have nothing to do with inflicting a more serious wound, or allowing the blade to be removed from a body more easily.the way that epee blades with a "V" cross-section are stiffer than rectangular foil blades.

[Wolfman140]

I'd go for the medival broadsword boys...You can always pull a Monty Pyton- Holy Grail and through the sword through his head. :-) Can't do that effectively w/ a rapier. :-)
I dunno...I think if I was a man on a mission to kill someone I'd go for a katana...That's if they didn't have a sword...But yes to duel, I'd use a rapier.
-Kevin

[wari]

I will say if a good epeist and a kendo master using real weapons, the kendo master need to get closer to cut the body in half or the hands off but the epeist will hit with point the closes target which will be the hand from a far distance then when the kendo master loose his weapon the epeist will finish him.

[grphiw]

I'm not sure the epee would win, actually. Based on what I understand about Kendo, they do have a sword which is a katana derivative. Katana blades were sheets of steel and iron sandwiched and folded over several million times while very hot, so that when it finally cools it becomes a strong but flexible blade that is razor sharp. During the Sengoku period of Japan, these swords were had a high enough craftsmanship that the armor provided no defense against a direct attack. So if the scenario is a real Kendo vs. Epee, and the Kendo guy has a katana or katana-derivative, dollars to donughts that katana is going to cut the epee into really little pieces, followed by the fencer.

[Inquartata]

There's a lot of myth out there about the Japanese sword.

For one thing, they weren't folded "millions of times" during the forging of the blades. Some were folded 14 or 15 times...which would give you lots of layers, certainly hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions. But the folding itself was done only a few times. ( There were also very complex ways of stacking different sorts and hardnesses of iron and steel which further complicates things. )

And---the reason the Japanese resorted to this folding process in the first place is because the iron ore available to them was in most cases quite poor. In order to get a decent quality steel they HAD to fold it, which gave them an almost homogenous final product.

So katanas ( and tachis, and wakizashis, etc. ) could be and often were of superb quality, but they were not super weapons capable of cutting through machinegun barrels or such like. An epee struck smartly would likely bend badly or even break, but being cut, while possible, would not be likely.

I'd say that given equal skills the epeeist would run the kendoka through, because the Japanese had no experience against anything like the lunge---but the kendoka would then proceed to slice the epeeist into gibbets before he hinself expired ( or, given the surprising frequency with which Western duellists survived multiple thrusts from rapiers and smallswords in the 17th and 18th centuries, walked away to partch up his wound ).

PS, technically kendo does not use a sword at all, it uses a split-bamboo shinai. So kendoka against epeeist could, if the former won, not result in the latter being cut at all. Beaten to death, maybe. The art which uses a real sword is kenjutsu. Somewhat different styles, methods and imperatives involved.

[grphiw]

Interesting, Inquartata.
I'm still betting on the kendo guy though.

[Inquartata]

Well, you and a lot of other people. This is one of the most contentious debates in the martial arts world ( along with such perennials as "Could arrows pierce armor" ). It's not going to be settled to the satisfaction of both sides anytime soon, I think.

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by Inquartata
There's a lot of myth out there about the Japanese sword.

For one thing, they weren't folded "millions of times" during the forging of the blades. Some were folded 14 or 15 times...which would give you lots of layers, certainly hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions. But the folding itself was done only a few times. ( There were also very complex ways of stacking different sorts and hard nesses of iron and steel which further complicates things. )

There is an easy way of converting folds to layers.

The number of layers equals two raised to the power of the number of folds. (This is presuming that you start with one layer and do not add any new layers after the folding has begun)

Thus a piece of metal (or paper for that matter) folded 10 times will result in 1024 layers whereas 20 folds will result in over 1 million layers.

I know little about metallurgy and Japanese swordcraft. But, I have done some reading about pattern welded blades. This was a process of welding steel of different qualities into a single block and then folding it. It was used by several cultures to address issues of metal quality that have been eliminated by the quality of modern refining techniques, and resulted in a blade that apparently had excellent cutting properties. (Not to mention looking really spiffy after acid etching) In any case, from what I remember, after a certain number of layers, the beneficial effect of layering is lost after the metal essentially becomes homogeneous. So, contrary to intuition more folds does not necessarily result in a better blade.

[nahouw]

Originally posted by wari
I will say if a good epeist and a kendo master using real weapons, the kendo master need to get closer to cut the body in half or the hands off but the epeist will hit with point the closes target which will be the hand from a far distance then when the kendo master loose his weapon the epeist will finish him.

The kendoka certainly doesn't have to get in close for a hit -- in kendo, only head, cheek, stomach and wrist are targets. Also, kendokas are trained to hit with only max 1" penetration of weapon, so they are finely attuned to distance.

I am an aikidoka; I practice the more spiritual and artistic level of the Japanese martial arts -- I practice aikido (non-sword), aiki-ken (with sword) and iaido (individual sword). Kendo is the sport practice of Japanese martial arts. But they are all the same within the training -- just different as to how you apply them.

I have used aikido techniques in sabre competitions (I like competition, but in aikido, by its principles, competition cannot exist, hence, why I fence). In the times that I have used them, I was always able to strike with 1 light. So, I would say that the kendoka would have the advantage over the epeeist -- the recent strength in the Eastern programs in international competitions bears out that their eastern training helps them in fencing competitions.