Wire-free fencing

[jp23]

Three quick questions for people with armory experience...

Question #1:
How many reels do you think are sold in the US on an annual basis?

Question #2:
I've been in fencing for 23 years and am sick of the limitations that reels create. It's 2003 and about time a functional and price competitive wireless product entered our sport.

I know there are challenges to developing an athlete-friendly, sport-friendly and secure wireless system. But assuming it were possible, what do you think clubs would pay for a wire-free product to replace reels, that would not introduce any new costs to fencers, and would work with all existing equipment?

Question #3:
How much do clubs spend fixing reels every year?

Thanks for your time,
jp23

[oiuyt]

1) Don't know. Two methods I see to try to find an answer: 1) poll the vendors/manufacturers. Use the responses that you get to estimate the responses that you don't get. 2) Estimate how many clubs are in the country and how many reels each club buys in a year. Add in divisions, etc. Poll a wide enough range of clubs/divisions to get a good idea of how much people buy to base these estimates on. Make sure to get a representative spread of club/division sizes and areas in the country.

2) $500/strip. I don't have a problem with reels and I can get them for this much, you have to compete with that. While a reelless system has benfits (no cords/reels to trip over), it also involves change which people are resistant to.

3) Roughly $25. I give some of my time on a volunteer basis to maintain the reels at my club. We have some costs from replacing the little plastic guides on the front of our Uhlmann reels that the wire loves eating through, we rarely need to replace the actual wire. In one of our reels the coiled spring keeps breaking off, we might end up replacing that eventually rather than just disassembling, removing the couple of shards of metal and reattaching the srping.

If it helps you for researching question 1, my club has roughly 50 members. We own 8 reels which we use on 3 strips. 6 Uhlmann turtles and 2 LP snails. If I had to guess I'd say the turtles are from about 10 years ago and the snails older. Unless we somehow got more space we're unlikely to make any reel purchases in the near future. Our current reels can be repaired indefinately and we don't have room for more than the three strips we already have. Not that I would might having a few more backup reels, but it's low on the priority list right now.

-B :)

[edew]

There are ongoing attempts to making a reel-less system, primarily for club and lcoal competition. I can see it as a great boon to local competition because it really is a hassle to drag around several cases full of reels, none of which are light in weight (and when added together, it a tough mofo to move around).

The FIE does not want any reel-less system that uses any sort of radio technology. The FIE believes that it's possible for someone to jam or crack any sort of encryption method. Maybe the NSA and the IDA and CIA should ask the FIE for some help in decryption methodologies.

But the real market would be clubs, and in order for any reel-less system to work, it has to be priced at around $300/set or so. Maybe less if one wants to out-sell the simpler and cheaper bungie-cord system (which runs around $150/set at most).

I'd pay $300/set for a reel-less system. The system has to be compatible with existing scoring machines and body cords.

[cowpaste]

Well if someone would tell me basically how a wireless system would work, I'd do my best to start building them. I still don't understand how in the world a wireless foil could tell the difference between ground, on target, and offtarget.

[D'Artagnan1673]

I think we should use computer networking technologies. All fencing weapons should have a CPU and a small CMOS battery. Troubleshooting would go something like this, " Ah, its a connection error because I cannot ping the scoring box. " 24 Gauge wire would be replaced with Category 5 wires. Our plugs would be network jacks. I could use my cable testers to see what pair might be malfunctioning.

All you'd need to fix a problem is a computer geek

....maybe I should have gone to bed a little sooner last night

[Nusy]

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
I think we should use computer networking technologies. All fencing weapons should have a CPU and a small CMOS battery. Troubleshooting would go something like this, " Ah, its a connection error because I cannot ping the scoring box. " 24 Gauge wire would be replaced with Category 5 wires. Our plugs would be network jacks. I could use my cable testers to see what pair might be malfunctioning.

All you'd need to fix a problem is a computer geek

....maybe I should have gone to bed a little sooner last night

Well, computer technology is OK, but I can't think that FIE would allow it: you only need a virus infection and the whole competition is cancelled... And how would you connect the central unit and the fencers - wirelessly? Infra ports? You can never depend on the connection (something gets between the two ports, or the port can be broken easily...). Radio connection? The same as the infra...
Please PM me when you have found it out!

Nusy

[jesup]

It's possible. It's also possible to make it basically unjammable and uncrackable, or close to. There was an EXTENSIVE design worked out many years ago in rec.sport.fencing - search there on groups.google.com for "spread spectrum".

Distribute keys by physical connection either at the start of the day, or at the start of the bout (via the blades). The base unit could attach to the scoring box, but that would in many ways be tougher than one that is also a scoring box. So this unit can eliminate reels _and_ replace an (older) scoring box.

Nowadays, with spread-spectrum unlicensed-band stuff as cheap as water, it'd be easy.

The FIE is still smarting from the "switches in the grips" scandal of many years ago.

Sigh. I've been waiting for these for years.

[DHCJr]

I would like to see wireless and I have been consulted on some.

There have been some shall we say problems.

1) What would people be willing to spend on equipment they could not use in competition.
2) The FIE is pushing for wireless, almost as much as the visor masks, but with some caveats.
a) Check the rules as they are written right now. If the box says one thing and the towers says another, the box decides.
b) The wireless system will be the same way. The lights in the fencers masks will be the controlling factor, not the box where the signal is going.
c) Ask any of the Armorers, who have worked with the wireless Sabre the FIE is pushing. It takes up to a half hour, to set up the fencers, putting in the lights in the masks, running the wires down the back of the fencer, connecting this all together and hoping the batteries still have a full charge.

I hope anybody doing this luck. I would like to see the U.S. take a lead in this.

[canthidefromme]

The "switching in the grips" scandal?

[veeco]

Just search the web for Boris Onishenko. You will understand.

[oiuyt]

Originally posted by cowpaste
Well if someone would tell me basically how a wireless system would work, I'd do my best to start building them. I still don't understand how in the world a wireless foil could tell the difference between ground, on target, and offtarget. :(

When the tip gets depressed use an electrical signal to see how much metal you have attached to the processor. There should be five distinct possibilities:
1) the same amount that you normally have with just the cord and foil -- register an off-target.
2) about double that -- register nothing, you've hit the opponent's bell.
3) significantly more -- register a valid touch, you're on the lame.
4) a bit more than that -- register a valid touch, you're on the lame and their weapon is also in contact with their lame.
5) significantly more than cases (3) and (4) -- register nothing, you've hit the copper strip.

Or something like that. I forget how the exact scheme went, as evidenced by the lack of specificity in "use an electrical signal to see how much metal you have". :) It was something like using the metal as an antenna, but I'm sorry that I don't remember details and know so little about it that even trying to speculate would likely not be useful and result in my sounding like a complete idiot.

Note that the FIE has been having trouble with getting a workable system for foil.

Another idea that I'd heard floated was basically constantly send out coded signal to the lame. When a fencer's tip depresses their processor checks for the presence of the other fencer's coded signal. If it's there you get a valid light. If you have a separate code for the copper strip and for each fencer's C line as well you can also not register touches to the strip or the weapon (have to be careful here as you want to register touches if your tip is depressed and your reading device is getting both the opponent's C line and A line signals, that means that you've hit their lame or bell and their weapon is in contact with their lame).

Hope that helps, at the least it could spark some ideas.
-B :)

[DHCJr]

What about the problem with Epee?

Try and come up with a solution.

How do you determine if it is a double touch within 1/25 second, no blade contact and you can't use IR or RF?

That is what the FIE is requiring!

[edew]

Donald, the answer is screw the FIE and use IR or RF. We need a solution on the local and club level so that we don't have to pay money for constant maintenance of reels and have all that ugly wire hanging around.

I swear, the one thing that makes a fencing club look positively goofy is the bungie cord with wires hanging all over the place. Better to have reels and make that look nice than to have bungie cord wiring. Better yet to remove them altogether and have RF or IR sensing devices.

Ignore what FIE wants. Once the system is in place at the local and regional levels, the bugs can be better determined and fixed. In other words, do the M$ method of product manufacturing: create something quickly and cheaply, send it out, get (negative) feedback, fix the problems, send out version 2, rinse repeat.

Once enough clubs and local competition organizers are satisfied with the workings, and the fencers are happy with the workings, then it will bubble up to the higher level competitions. The main reason is because it's much easier to deal with a wireless system: each set of reels and floor cords weigh about 20+ pounds. And they're cumbersome to lug around as well.

With an IR/RF based wireless system, all one really need might be a base station attached to the existing scoring machines, or new scoring machines with transceivers attached. Light and easy to carry and set up. No moving parts to wear out. Use LEDs so that you can have them going for 100,000 hours before burning out.

[danp]

EDEW nailed it - if the sport waits for the FIE to bless a particular system, it could be a long wait. It seems utterly barbaric to be yanking around a bunch of wires in today's day and age.

I just read an article about the use of near-field magnetics. Here's a link:

http://tinyurl.com/oeis

It sounds cheap, low power and quite promising.

-Dan

Originally posted by edew
Donald, the answer is screw the FIE and use IR or RF. We need a solution on the local and club level - I swear, the one thing that makes a fencing club look positively goofy is the bungie cord with wires hanging all over the place.

[DHCJr]

I agree with all of you and as I said I hope the U.S. takes the lead. I would like to see it!

I did forget one problem that is not insurmountable and it has nothing to do with the FIE and that is the transmitter. Those of you who were around when there were Sabre sensors. The biggest problem, besides most brands were always needing to be fixed, was the sensors grew legs. The club/organizer or whoever will need to have a way in place to make sure all the transmitters come back.

As I said it is not insurmountable and I hope that minor problem does not stop anyone. I would like to see one in place. A mechanical system for scoring in the 21st Century is ludicrous.

It's bad enough the Epee has not changed for over 110 years. Can someone do something about those tips.

[danp]

One idea is that the transmitters are purchased by the fencers themselves. All the organizers would need to do is hand out a small frequency or encoding module that plugs into the transmitter. They can be as small as a postage stamp.

-D

[i]The club/organizer or whoever will need to have a way in place to make sure all the transmitters come back.
[/b]

[DHCJr]

Same requirement, only a bigger problem, because they are so small. You need to make sure you get back the small frequency or encoding module. You did not change the problem, just required the fencer AND the organizers would have to purchase something new.

[Inquartata]

Well---the bungee cord systems are cheap. Saying we all ought to use reels because it looks bad otherwise is like saying we all ought to drive late-model BMWs and Mercedes' because you just look silly driving a 1993 Taurus in this day and age...

[edew]

I'm saying, as I wrote above, that if the cost of wireless is commensurate with the cost of a wired system, say around $300/set (which is less than a pair of cheap LP reels, btw), then one certainly should go for it, even if it does not meet FIE specs for not using IR/RF methods of going wireless.

The solution to walking transmitters is to have a mini GPS locating device, a high-storage capacitor, and enough of a charge to shock the $h1t out of person keeping the transmitter in his or her back pocket.

[mfp]

I watched several hours of reel-less sabre fencing earlier this month. The system used was the Sportservice-1 (STM) system that allstar/Uhlmann have been promoting. Curiously, after the the initial "look -- no reel wire" reactions, no one really cared or even really noticed the lack of reels and wire. (of course, though these weren't people who have to carry or maintain reels). What the fencers, directors and spectators thought was the best part of the system was the extention lights in the masks. The mask lights allowed everyone to concentrate on the fencers without having to shoot glances over to the box. In fact the directors usually stood with their back to the box and just used the extension lights in the masks.

So until someone comes up with an inexpensive, easy to use reel-less system, we were thinking there might be a market for something as simple as (wired or wireless) extension lights for masks.