Wire-free fencing

[Rolls]

Well, I know that THE biggest factor at my local club is cost. So, there would be NO way we would go for a wireless system unless it was cheaper or almost as cheap as a reel system. For that matter, the reels have never bothered me. I don't know of many people who complain about them either.

Rolls.

[mhoneth]

I thought I could jump in with some theoretical ideas, and sum up some issues/solutions (my credentials at the end of this posting):

Mode of Communication: digital cellular radio communications. One transmittor can handle approximately 500 pairs of frequencies which are assigned dynamically. Thus assuming a normal cellphone blackout in the salle, no more than 1,000 fencers could fence simultaneously.

Electronic Security: Digital is the key. Just as with cell phones, analogue signals can easily be tapped and interfered with. Digital allows the transmission of secure keys (public key infrastructure - PKI), which although breakable, would take longer than any tournament to hack. Each box would have a hardware public and private key built-in. At the beginning of each bout and/or competition, the player registers her box with the tournament organizers (say at the same time that the equipment is checked). This registration allows the scoring equiment to recognize that fencer uniquely through the public key. The private key remains hidden and therefore ensures security (this is the key that needs to be hacked). A simple hardware only system is virtually impregnable to viruses, worms, etc.

Physical Security: One can reasonably expect each fencer to purchase their own boxes. The technology is similar to cellular pagers, and can therefore be expected to fetch between US$150 - US$50, depending on the economics of scale (fencing is a relatively small market). Fencers can carry their boxes with them for life - no wear and tear - and are expected to be responsible for them. Rich clubs could purchase a stock, and hand them out, but then stand the risk of loss/theft.

The tournament scoring module would definately be more advanced than existing wired models, in order to deal with the radio transmission, secure keys, and scoring logic (basically a mini-cellular tower), and would be the most expensive part of the solution, although it could be connected to a laptop with appropriate software to minimize costs, and actually manage and track the entire tournament with results.

Compatability: To make the system worthwhile, the protocols and standards need to be universal, thus allowing any fencer with a box the ability to fence anywhere where wireless is available.

Equipment: This argument assumes that all the equipment remains the same (everything is wired to the box), the only difference being that the fencer herself is not wired to a harness.

Total Wireless: There is a lot of room for improvement in the use of recent technological advances wrt fencing. It is theoretically possible to avoid wiring the blade at all. Wired clothing (e.g. lame) could, linked to an advanced box, distinguish differences in signals based on dissimilar metals (thus the business end of the blades would need to use a standardized metal, while the appropriate target area must be covered with a dissimilar metal).



Michael Honeth is an IM/IT Manager with the Government of Canada, and has been involved in numerous wireless projects including telehealth, bi-directional satellite to remote communities, and boardroom connectivity of executives and professionals.

[edew]

Originally posted by Rolls
Well, I know that THE biggest factor at my local club is cost. So, there would be NO way we would go for a wireless system unless it was cheaper or almost as cheap as a reel system. For that matter, the reels have never bothered me. I don't know of many people who complain about them either.

Rolls.

That goes without saying. The cost per strip should be comparable to a pair of new reels: $600. If you can get a remote system for $600, you're better off than buying reels or even bungie cord systems. Ok, bungie cords cost maybe $200. But you have to do a lot of manual labor to put it up (as opposed to setting the reels down or putting the remote receiver on a table) and there's a lot of repair needed on bungie systems.

The bungie system at Stanford routinely needs 3 repairs per strip over the course of the season. Some might go as high as 6 per season (Sept-June). Each time, the repair cost (equipment only) is around $5-$20. Add the labor cost, and it's another $60. Typical causes for breakage is broken wires.

More importantly is the downtime of that strip.

So, a remote system that doesn't have wires will pay for itself after five or so years. Of course, if you lose the transmitter, that might set you back. But the easy of use will be a great boon. Even better for location competitions where the events are held at some school gym or the like, where folks have to crate in boxes of reels and machines.

Machines are fairly light-weight, nowadays. The receiver could be heavier, but it's not going to weigh as much as a single reel.

[Inquartata]

Or unless your wireless system needs repair, and you have no electrical engineer in your club to fix it. In which case it gets a LOT more expensive.

[I_luv_saber]

If I were a club owner, or even if I, personally, had enough money, I'd buy a wireless system in a flash. Bam, pick up and go fence with you're friends in the park. Yeah, that'd be cool. But it all comes down to money. I mean, when I really thnk about, I already get ticked at how much equpment costs. Considering our technology and such, fencing equipment would be cheaper if we could attract more people to the sport (i.e. more people to buy more equipment, means vendors can drop prices some). It depends on what you think... whether getting a wireless system, attracting more to the sport would work ; or ; waiting on the wireless system and attract more first. I mean, I think we should try and get a wireless system first but that's just me...

[I_luv_saber]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Or unless your wireless system needs repair, and you have no electrical engineer in your club to fix it. In which case it gets a LOT more expensive.

I don't see the risk of repair. Unless someone, maybe dropped it or something like that. Aside from simple cleaning, what repairs would you need? Also it's possible to make it simple enough so a regular computer techinician could do it and that's fairly cheap. On the stealing of the equipment problem, why don't the do like stores and have a scanner in the doorway. In fact you could do that with all your equipment for cost-effectiveness. Those systems are relatively simple.

[Inquartata]

You've never had anything electronic die on you? TV, cellphone, computer?

Define "fairly cheap".

Then there's the ongoing cost of batteries.

I think these systems are going to have to become very widespread before (a) all the bugs are worked out (b) all the possible problems reveal themselves and (c) economies of scale make them affordable.

If the accounts of how much time it takes to set two fencers up with them are correct, they need to be substantially simplified operationally as well.

[Rolls]

Besides if you want to run down to the park and fence, you can. Just do it dry. That's wireless. I don't see the need for a scoring system period in an informal atmosphere like that.

Rolls.

[edew]

Originally posted by Inquartata
You've never had anything electronic die on you? TV, cellphone, computer?

Define "fairly cheap".

Then there's the ongoing cost of batteries.

I think these systems are going to have to become very widespread before (a) all the bugs are worked out (b) all the possible problems reveal themselves and (c) economies of scale make them affordable.

If the accounts of how much time it takes to set two fencers up with them are correct, they need to be substantially simplified operationally as well.

Let's say $500/strip for the owner of the equipment, $10/yr in batteries, repair, upgrades. $0.00 for fencers (as it is now, with the reels).

How's that for the cost factor?

[Inquartata]

Eh, what color is the sky in your world, Eric?

I guarantee you that "the owner of the equipment" is going to recoup his costs. By charging fees, dues, entry fees for competitions, whatever. From fencers. "As now with the reels". In fact, he'll probably MAKE money from them over time.

"Zero", indeed!

And what sort of useful lifetime are you assuming for the equipment, that repair costs average out to such a low sum? Hell, it'd cost more than that just in shipping to send a malfunctioning device back to the vendor or manufacturer, exclusive of actual parts, labor and profit, per occasion. Now, if it lasts for twenty years without breaking you might be on track, but if it breaks down in year 2 or 3?

[mfp]

Originally posted by mhoneth
I thought I could jump in with some theoretical ideas, and sum up some issues/solutions (my credentials at the end of this posting):

Mode of Communication: digital cellular radio communications. One transmittor can handle approximately 500 pairs of frequencies which are assigned dynamically. Thus assuming a normal cellphone blackout in the salle, no more than 1,000 fencers could fence simultaneously.

"Assuming a normal cell phone blackout"?

Bad assumption. There's no way (in the US) that the cell phone companies (and the FCC) will allow such usage in their allocated frequency ranges. Furthermore the requirement of a cellphone blackout just wouldn't fly.

In the US the FCC has allocated 5 frequency ranges for the unlicensed use of spread-spectrum devices. One of the Industrial, Scientific, and Medical (ISM) bands would be a better choice as it is already allocated for low-power, unlicensed spread-spectrum devices for telemetry type applications. Consider fencing hit detection our telemetry application.

Wireless Integrated Network Sensors are a very trendy topic right now with lots of universities and companies working on them. (eg UCB's PicoRadio project, MIT Media Lab, Rockwell, etc). At some point they should produce something cheap and robust enough to possibly use for fencing "wireless" applications.

Then once the comm. side is dealt with comes the harder fencing related part of the problem. How to easily, reliably, cheaply detect such things as ...

1) Differentiating non scoring hits to the strip or opponent's bell guard from valid epee touches when the elements involved no longer have a common ground

2) How to detect a failed or marginal unit during a bout (before it affects the bout).

3) How to insure that a unit isn't somehow "compromised". Worrying about 3rd parties somehow cracking or spoofing encrypted spread spectrum transmissions is somewhat silly if it's possible cheat with the equipment a fencer is wearing . So what if the link between the fencer's box and the scoring box is secure if a teammate in the stands can send his own signal to the box worn by his buddy and tell it to relay a hit.

Having fencers buy their own boxes seems to needlessly add extra cost while perhaps reducing trustworthiness.

[r. tissu]

hey maybe my opinion dose not really matter, anyway its up to the people at the f.i.e.. also i think all the technology in the world wont make you a better fencer (or whatever you like to do that uses technology, for me its film directing (digital vs. film uhg...,people should stop bitcin about cameras and make some films)) so in the end as the saying goes "things change" and whatever comes next comes next.

[ysbadadden]

As far as club-level equipment goes, aren't people trying to reinvent the wheel?

There's an English-made wireless electrical foil system that works fine and costs, I think, about $150 for a pair of light-weight pcoket-sized boxes. It's not for tournaments, but for clubs. It was on rec.sport.fencing about two years ago. I bought it, used it, lent it, lost it.

Why hasn't it set the fencing world on fire?

[mfp]

Originally posted by ysbadadden
As far as club-level equipment goes, aren't people trying to reinvent the wheel?

There's an English-made wireless electrical foil system that works fine and costs, I think, about $150 for a pair of light-weight pcoket-sized boxes. It's not for tournaments, but for clubs. It was on rec.sport.fencing about two years ago. I bought it, used it, lent it, lost it.

Why hasn't it set the fencing world on fire?

I'm guessing you are refering to the "Foilmaster"

http://www.phaedrusltd.co.uk/pages/html/foilmaster.html

If so, it supposedly has a number of issues

1) It's no longer made

2) It supposedly often registers hits to the guard as touches

3) It's more of a practice aid than a replacement for a club's scoring system.

4) It's for foil (i.e. either useless for some fencers or clubs and/or it would need to be supplemented by more money on something else so why not just get some reels).

It does appear to share one advantage with StM "wireless" sabre fencing system -- in both the StM system and the Foilmaster the scoring indicator is either part of or attached to the fencer worn unit itself (i.e. wired, just with a very short wire). No need to worry about wireless/ radio frequency jamming or spoofing when the light/buzzer is wired to the fencers unit.

With the StM system if a (wireless) extension light lit but the corresponding fencer mask mounted light was dark it would look pretty suspicious.

[I_luv_saber]

Originally posted by Inquartata
You've never had anything electronic die on you? TV, cellphone, computer?

Define "fairly cheap".

Then there's the ongoing cost of batteries.

I think these systems are going to have to become very widespread before (a) all the bugs are worked out (b) all the possible problems reveal themselves and (c) economies of scale make them affordable.

If the accounts of how much time it takes to set two fencers up with them are correct, they need to be substantially simplified operationally as well.

Point A: This device would not be the same as a computer, TV, cellphone. Point B: other than the TV, how often DOES your computer/cellphone break down on you? I have NEVER had a computer break down in the 6 years we have always had a computer. Cellphone? How the hell would a cell break on you? Unless, again, you drop it or it gets water on it. And a television, whenever it breaks down, usually does so in the monitor part, which are prone to damage. My point is, again, that aside from simple cleaning, what repairs would you need? Fairly cheap: since comp. techs are in nearly every town, 20-50 bucks. My Dad is a computer tech and said he would charge $25. And again, it would not break down often.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by I_luv_saber
Point A: This device would not be the same as a computer, TV, cellphone.

You're right---it would probably be a whole lot less well-designed and professionally produced. It would come out of a handful of very small businesses. It would most likely come without the sort of warranty you get on most consumer electronics.

Maybe I should have asked: Ever had a scoring box go south on you? Clearly, THOSE do not last forever without problems...

I have NEVER had a computer break down in the 6 years we have always had a computer.

No offense, but---do you think your personal luck is generalizeable?

Computers certainly DO have problems, else corporate IT departments would be unnecessary expenses. Sometimes the problems are incessant. In my last job I had a desktop whose hard drive crashed and a laptop that burned out, in the course of four years.

comp. techs are in nearly every town,

Evidence enough that they DO break down, no? If they didn't there'd be no need for repairs or techs.

[I_luv_saber]

I didn't say they don't break down, I said they don't often. That's the reason my Dad is having trouble finding work. As for the "poorly constructed" argument. The first ones probably will be. It's a trial and error thing. Now I'm not saying it's a huge priority, it's not. I am just saying it needs to be done in the near future. But, anyway, I know how you feel about it, you know how I feel about it, we're at an impasse. Let's just agree to disagree!

[mhoneth]

Bad assumption. There's no way (in the US) that the cell phone companies (and the FCC) will allow such usage in their allocated frequency ranges. Furthermore the requirement of a cellphone blackout just wouldn't fly.

I thought the US used cellular blackouts in selected movie theatres as well as in sensitive medical facilities?

[DHCJr]

No, they Ask people to turn off their cell-phones in hospitals, theaters and at gas stations. I have sat through many a movie and listen to a cell-phone go off. They haven't blocked it yet, but I would love to see it.

[edew]

Originally posted by Inquartata
You're right---it would probably be a whole lot less well-designed and professionally produced. It would come out of a handful of very small businesses. It would most likely come without the sort of warranty you get on most consumer electronics.

Maybe I should have asked: Ever had a scoring box go south on you? Clearly, THOSE do not last forever without problems...

[...]

Of the 20+ years of fencing, I've never had a scoring machine go south on me while at a competition. Maybe the worst is a bulb burned out. And those were with those cheap (pre-solid state circuitry cheap) orange boxes with