Wire-free fencing

[DHCJr]

The lights in the mask ARE the official lights. The machine on the table is for the spectators. If there is a difference between what is on the mask and the box. The mask lights are the deciding lights. The referee was watching the right lights.

[jesup]

The "classic" idea for sensing what was hit was to (as mentioned) put a coded signal on the surface. The same mechanism used for signalling lets you know what was hit (and for certain; the coded signal allows verification).

"Lights in the masks"? Weird. Probably the FIE's idea to avoid anything wireless. No wonder it's a pain to set up. If it works and is easy, then it'd be fine.

I agree with Eric - make something that works for local tourneys/clubs. If it works well, eventually the FIE will accept it.

As for the transmitters - either make them cheap (802.11 cards are circa $20), and/or make them start screaming if they lose contact with the base station - if someone walks away with one, it starts to scream.

[jp23]

EDEW-

I totally agree with you. The US should lead this and the FIE will catch on in time.

However, if people will only pay $300-$500 for an entire strip, that means replacing 2 reels and the floor cords, then we're all out of luck. There's no way to cover costs that way.

I believe it can work but clubs will have to be willing to pay a little more. The key is to not think of it as replacing reels or bungies, but rather as the next evolution of the sport. It opens the doors for the sport to be more fan friendly, via ability to put on bigger and better tournaments and not be limited by venue. And on the local level, allows us to move beyond dingy clubs to fence and grow the #'s of the sport. (You can fence at your health club or YMCA because you're more portable -heck, you can even fence outside)

When the sport transitioned from dry to electric, it cost a bit to make the upgrade. But I think we all would say it was worth it. Making the next step is worth it to me and I think there's a lot of people who would pay $400 per reel replacement (making it $800-$1000 per strip) to revolutionize the sport.

-jp23

[C.J.]

Originally posted by danp
EDEW nailed it - if the sport waits for the FIE to bless a particular system, it could be a long wait. It seems utterly barbaric to be yanking around a bunch of wires in today's day and age.

I just read an article about the use of near-field magnetics. Here's a link:

http://tinyurl.com/oeis

It sounds cheap, low power and quite promising.

-Dan

I don't think it is any cheaper than any other RF based technology.

Besides, the issue is really not about wireless technology itself.

Anyone has idea on how to implement wireless system for foil?

[danp]

Actually, it is cheaper.. It also uses less power and makes for smaller more secure devices. I've been working with a similar technology for about a year now in another arena (bluetooth), but this shows further promise. It solves a couple of big issues that have been brought up by the FIE and others like security and expense. It also has the benefit of being less prone to interference.

But your right, the issue isn't about the wireless technology itself. 802.11 or similar technologies could provide a solution depending on the implementation.

There have been threads on wireless fencing (foil and otherwise) - you can do a search on this site to find such info:

http://tinyurl.com/ogez


-Dan

Originally posted by C.J.
I don't think it is any cheaper than any other RF based technology.

Besides, the issue is really not about wireless technology itself.

Anyone has idea on how to implement wireless system for foil?

[danp]

...also, has anyone ever seen information or followup regarding the system at Westminster fencing? Was this the system referred to in the earlier posts about security failures?

Thanks,
-Dan

[Inquartata]

Not more expensive?

Just wait until it needs repair. Most clubs can barely cope with the mechanics of fixing a reel. You'll have to send all or part back to the vendor, until it gets replaced by a newer, spiffier model and no one stocks parts for it any more, whereupon you're on your own. Unless you've got an electronics guy in your club, you're sunk...

[edew]

That certainly would be factored into the decision of purchasing (and marketing) the product. If a club owner asks, what will you do if it breaks, or what will happen two or five or ten years from now, the manufacturer better be able to answer that in some convincing way.

Considering that the items are suppose to have no moving parts, I don't think there's much of a chance for them to break (unless someone drops the thing or sweat gets into the device and shorts the whole thing out).

Even so, the bugs will be worked out within the first year. After that, there's not likely to be new undiscovered bugs.

Sustaining the product would be by seeing continued growth in adoption by new clubs and fencing federations. It should not be selling updated products to the same people.

I might imagine that a good business model would be to sell the signaller to the fencers themselves. Fencers do lose them, new fencers do show up, etc. So, as long as fencing increases in population, the manufacturer can sustain itself by selling more devices (as much as other equipment manufacturers sell masks or lames).

Each fencer will then have an internationally accepted SIM-like chip to uniquely identify that fencer with the device (so that it can't be borrowed by other fencers). The fencer might also carry a magnetic stripe card to initiate the device at each base station.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by edew
I might imagine that a good business model would be to sell the signaller to the fencers themselves.

Heh, I foresee a repetition of the Great Capteur Fiasco...

[edew]

Part of the problem with the capteur was that electric sabre at the time was new. People weren't sure how the effect of whipovers or malparries or whatever would look. Electric foil and epee are pretty well established, and electric sabre is certainly now very well established. So, the possibility of the capteur fiasco would be slight because people would know what to expect.

With the capteur, people didn't know what to expect.

[Inquartata]

They did make us expectorate, however.

[wari]

Originally posted by mfp
I watched several hours of reel-less sabre fencing earlier this month. The system used was the Sportservice-1 (STM) system that allstar/Uhlmann have been promoting. Curiously, after the the initial "look -- no reel wire" reactions, no one really cared or even really noticed the lack of reels and wire. (of course, though these weren't people who have to carry or maintain reels). What the fencers, directors and spectators thought was the best part of the system was the extention lights in the masks. The mask lights allowed everyone to concentrate on the fencers without having to shoot glances over to the box. In fact the directors usually stood with their back to the box and just used the extension lights in the masks.

So until someone comes up with an inexpensive, easy to use reel-less system, we were thinking there might be a market for something as simple as (wired or wireless) extension lights for masks.

Can you tell me please where to buy sportservice-1, thank you

[DHCJr]

Simple answer. You can't!

The World Cups and World Championships that use the system can only rent the system and they have to pay for a minimum of 4 technicians.

The system is very complicated and takes a lot of time to set up. First the fencers have to take off their jacket and a metalic waist band is fitted to them. The system uses a skin capacitance. The mask has to be fitted with a light in the mask. Then all this has to be wired up together with a controller.

This has been patented by the Lithuaeans. What is most interesting is it is exactly the same as an earlier patent by the French, I believe in the mid-50s. That was dropped when some fencers got burned.

[wari]

Originally posted by DHCJr
Simple answer. You can't!

The World Cups and World Championships that use the system can only rent the system and they have to pay for a minimum of 4 technicians.

The system is very complicated and takes a lot of time to set up. First the fencers have to take off their jacket and a metalic waist band is fitted to them. The system uses a skin capacitance. The mask has to be fitted with a light in the mask. Then all this has to be wired up together with a controller.

This has been patented by the Lithuaeans. What is most interesting is it is exactly the same as an earlier patent by the French, I believe in the mid-50s. That was dropped when some fencers got burned.

Ok !!
If I want to rent it who should I go to then .
Thank you,

[mfp]

Originally posted by DHCJr

This has been patented by the Lithuaeans.

Lithuaeans? (sic)

Sportservice1 is based in Ukraine.

Several years back it was wriiten up that the "wireless" sabre fencing system would be "brought to production stage in co-operation with allstar and Uhlmann"

http://home.t-online.de/home/allstar/wireless.htm

While it looks like that has yet to happen, I'd suggest anyone wanting recent info contact allstar/Uhlmann to see what's up with wireless and their partnership.

The demo/trial I happened to see was run by Ukrainians (not Lithuaeans or Lilliputians) somehow affiliated with Sportservice1, however I don't have any contact info for them.

[Talyn]

They have created a wire-less system haven't they?

But they were dropped because it could easily be interfered with so cheating could be a problem.

[r. tissu]

wire-less fencing would be difficult. having some experience with rc hobbies and knowing having many people in a room using radio units you need many different frequencies. these frequencies come from crystals, so every fencer in the club would need a radio unit and be operating on on a different frequency (ugh... complicated right). it may all-so turn into a situation like saber sensors (people might steel them). and a german wireless unit may cost far more than one reel and there is also interference and foul-play to conceder

[wari]

Originally posted by r. tissu
wire-less fencing would be difficult. having some experience with rc hobbies and knowing having many people in a room using radio units you need many different frequencies. these frequencies come from crystals, so every fencer in the club would need a radio unit and be operating on on a different frequency (ugh... complicated right). it may all-so turn into a situation like saber sensors (people might steel them). and a german wireless unit may cost far more than one reel and there is also interference and foul-play to conceder

I do not know much about wire less but what about cell phone there are a millions of them and they do not interfere with each other.

[sabreur]

Originally posted by edew
Part of the problem with the capteur was that electric sabre at the time was new. People weren't sure how the effect of whipovers or malparries or whatever would look. Electric foil and epee are pretty well established, and electric sabre is certainly now very well established. So, the possibility of the capteur fiasco would be slight because people would know what to expect.

With the capteur, people didn't know what to expect.

I arrived in electric sabre just after the capteur disappeared, but I believe one of the big problems was that the damned things were incredibly finicky and frequently went south at critical moments, so you had delays, fumbling with equipment, etc.

I haven't noticed that sabre particularly suffers from the lack of a capteur--the cuts for the most part are pretty credible.

On the cell phone issue, I'm no pro, but I believe that cell phones use a pretty elaborate frequency switching mechanism, so that lots of little data packets are multiplexed across a wide range of frequencies. Lots of technology there, which the market bears for cell phones, but I'm not sure that adapting the technology would be cost-effective for fencing.

The real answer, as EDEW as said, is to get over the IR/RF transmission issue--modern encryption techniques could pretty well eliminate people spoofing the system.

Cheers, MR

[edew]

If the FIE need some bullet-proof plan for the World Championships or the Olympics, so be it. But for most club use or local/regional/national competitions where the need to cheat by having someone spoof signals is minimal, having a wireless system will be the way to go.