Another rules "quiz"

[Dee EffEll]

Here's one from a recent referee's clinic. No, I don't know the answer.

You are directing an epee pool bout and the score is tied at 2-2. Fencer X has been given a previous group one penalty (yellow card) for a non-confoming weapon (and it is not material what the card was for in this question.) Fencer X attacks, and seeing the light on the scoring machine, whips off his/her mask and celebrates *before* the referee calls halt. Rule t87 specifies this is improper, and incurrs a penaly. Since it is a subsequent group one offense, a red card is given to Fencer X, but his/her touch is not annulled. Ergo, the score is now 3-3.

Ah, now the question. What if this action occurs when the score is 4-4? Or in the overtime? Is the score now 5-5? Who gets the victory?

Can't stay 4-4: the rules *specifically* say fencer X's touch is *not* annulled.

Anyone? Anyone? Buhler? EDew?

[Capt. Slo-mo]

What an appropriate scenario for the "Viking Tie Breaker"!

(See thread "Using parry 3 in epee" for details)

[downunder]

both sides recieve a hit...

score moves to 3-3...

if it was at 4 each its considered to be the same as a double hit in epee.

We've had this occur with simple corps a corp in foil.

Its the extra minute of a foil bout, after priority has been established. The attacking fencer fleches, makes a hit, but gets a second yellow (therefore red) card for the corps a corps.

Both fencers are placed en garde, and we start again.

[Artisan]

Score stays at 4-4. Can't have 5-5.

Same in overtime.

from t87 ..."When the final touch has been scored, the bout is not ended until the two fencers have saluted each other, the audience and the Referee."

So while the valid touch "won" the bout, the bout is not over yet, so the penalty of the second first group offence is a touch awarded to Y - as if it were a double. Score reverts to 4-4; fencers resume at same position on the strip that the halt occurred, and fence for the next Single touch or until time expires.

helluva a way to lose a victory.

[canthidefromme]

Why would someone whip off their mask and celebrate at 2-2 in a pool bout?

The question is flawed--throw it out!

[Craig]

Originally posted by canthidefromme
Why would someone whip off their mask and celebrate at 2-2 in a pool bout?

It happens. Plus, the key to the rules questions is focusing on the rules and not the bout situation. Sometimes the questions are written using improbably situations to trip up people who get too hung up on the situation and don't pay enough attention to the actual rule.

Cheers,
Craig

[Artisan]

Originally posted by canthidefromme
Why would someone whip off their mask and celebrate at 2-2 in a pool bout?

The question is flawed--throw it out!

Here's one scenario: I'm a "U" fencing for 1 year, you're an "A" with a national championship under your belt, fencing a local tourney for practice. I hold you off to 2-2 for three minutes instead of being mopped up 5-0 inside of the first 45 seconds. Bout now goes to Priority, where a coin toss may determine the humiliating defeat by a beginner of a seasoned vet, yet another victim of the dreaded overconfidence that so many fencers can fall prey to. I little mask dance puts even more "pressure" on the experienced fencer to finish the job properly - or choke. The rookie controls the bout - nothing to lose. For the "U" its a mastercard moment!

[pkt]

Originally posted by Craig
... Sometimes the questions are written using improbably situations to trip up people who get too hung up on the situation and don't pay enough attention to the actual rule.

Cheers,
Craig

I found out this all too well.
The hard way.

PK

[Wizardly]

...darn, and my response was "annul the touch anyway, hope the fencer doesn't appeal, end the bout, and go home earlier." Shows what I know. At least I didn't have "make up a penalty that annuls the touch..."

[Inquartata]

Sorry, it's epee after all, I am afraid I nodded off...

What was the question again?