Right of way question..

[Namir]

Ok....i know that this has been beat to death recently...but I need to know the source of the rule, if I understand it correctly.

My understanding is that, in foil, ceases to be an attack once the back foot crosses in front of the front foot and touches the floor. That even with arm extended that it becomes "in-preparation" if the feet cross over. is that correct? If so, where can I verify that?

[The0ne]

I believe that this not the case. A cross-over step is just a piece of footwork, like an advance. If you are extending you can do a cross-over-lunge, with the ROW repercusions the same as and advance-lunge.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Although I do not fence foil I also thought it was when teh foot crossed and hit the floor you lost right of way.

[Wizardly]

Lessee if I can remember this correctly without looking at the other thread...

If there was an intent to hit with the fleche that misses, the opponent may riposte as further steps constitute a remise/redouble. If it is a cross step preparation, it's a compound attack. Translate cross steps into advances and fleches into lunges and map it onto the standard rules for those movements.

[MyraTrue]

ok, so I'm going to do it. Sorry Wizardly, I figure someone ought to enjoy a good laugh at my rule ignorance.

This question (If I understand what you are asking) has been asked fairly recently, at least as it applies to a fleche. The link should be: http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthr...&threadid=7993

I was the confused one, so I'll just pass on the confusion. Or say, fence epee!

Good luck,
Myra

[edew]

Sounds like confusing this with the fleche in foil. The fleche in foil ends when the back foot hits the ground (since the front foot is used to push off of, it's always in contact with the ground).

Other than that, one is allowed to advance and retreat and cross the feet, and one can have an established point in line and advance and retreat, including advancing and retreating by crossing the feet, and none of that disturbs the point in line.

Certainly, an advance-lunge which includes having the feet cross during the advance part is still a simple action. The advance in this case shouldn't nullify the right of way.

On a tactical point, I don't recommend anyone use a crossing advance as part of an attack. Might as well just ask your opponent to shoot you down. Easier on the wear and tear on your and your oppnent's equipment.

[rory]

Generally I'd bow to Eric's knowledge, but in this case, see t.56 a) point 8.

Continous steps forward, with the legs crossing one another, constitute a preparation and on this preparation any simple attack has priority.

So, it's a special case for the cross-step - make more than one, and no matter what your hand's doing, you're preparing.

[Marcos]

the more I read about ROW the less I understand it!

[Craig]

Originally posted by Marcos
the more I read about ROW the less I understand it!

Don't read, do.

[Joe biebel]

I think EDEW has it right, as far as he goes. Remember though that no answer is going to cover all of the possibilities as far as ROW. In the case of the feet crossing during a flesche, or a lunge or an advance lunge, each of these attacks has a start and a finish to it. That is not the end of the equation though. What the opponent does and when they do it in relation to the attack is what matters.

I will give one set of examples. In all three examples the attacker makes a flesche attack and the opponent makes a stop hit while retreating.

Example 1. The attacker flesches and hits his opponent before the back foot finishes the action. The stop hit, while hitting before the attack arrives, is out of time.

Example 2. The attacker makes a flesche attack and the opponent makes a stop hit while retreating. The attacker hits his opponent after the back foot finishes (is now into a continuation of the original attack) the action. The stop hit, while hitting during the original attack, arrives in time.

Example 3. The attacker makes a flesche attack and the opponent makes a stop hit while retreating. The attacker hits his opponent on the next step after the finish of his original flesche. The stop hit (or counter attack), is not made until the next tempo (the continuation of the the flesche) while hitting before the continued attack arrives, is not in time.

The attack with feet crossing can and does end at the finish of each footwork action, but if nothing "interupts" (stop hit, line, attack) the action, in the tempo before each continuation of the action, the running attack can be instaneously renewed.

Again, this is one possible set of examples. While this may not seem simple, (and to some may seem incorrect) I believe it is consistant with the spirit of right of way (and the way I have seen the better directors call this type of action) in foil.

The idea to avoid is that of "taking turns." If the first action (flesche, let's say) does not arrive, the stop hit, line, or counter attack automatically has ROW. Unh, unh, no, no, no. It is possible yes, but there are few slam dunks in judging ROW. It is the relationship of the actions (which also makes it so difficult to judge) that determines ROW in most cases.

Joe Biebel

[edew]

Seems like people have a tennis-view of right of way: once the ball is hit towards my side, I have complete control of the ball until I hit it back. Back and forth. I can take my own sweet time to decide when to whack the ball.

Well, that's not exactly how RoW works in fencing. I may have right of way, until I finish an attack. Then I don't have right of way. My opponent has the right then to take over the right of way, but if he or she chooses not to do so (a bad choice, in almost all cases), I'm under no obligation to wait for that ball to come back to my side of the court. I can hit another ball, basically. I can regain right of way if my opponent chooses not to have the right of way.

One of the drills I do with some beginning fencers is nothing more than gaining and holding right of way. There's no scoring involved, just taking the right of way, and ceding it when one feels like it.