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cowpaste · 09-18-2003, 06:22 PM

(Foil) What's a counter-attack with opposition? I read it's closing out a line or something, but I don't see how you can do this while counter-attacking. Does anyone have a picture?

MyraTrue · 09-18-2003, 07:05 PM

I don't have a picture, but it IS possible. You see it more in epee, because the counter makes better sense. I'm not the worlds best technical person, but say someone comes in with a straight attack into your six. They've got the ROW, but as they move in, you bind, take, however you want to say it, but you redirect their blade and force yours in. Maybe by just straightening your arm, you force their blade wide of you. Think about fencing beginners with a really timid lunge, and how you can simply force their blade out and lunge into them...

Hope thats right... hope it helps... half awake. Maybe I can find you a picture later...

Cerian · 09-18-2003, 09:16 PM

It seems like deflecting their blade, in a bind or otherwise, would count as a parry of some sort...

pkt · 09-18-2003, 09:18 PM

MT, opposition is simpler, much, much simpler than what you described.

CP,

If you see your opp's attack with the point slightly too high, off target, etc. just attack into it but remember to use your blade and guard to take your opp's blade to a higher line and out of your target's area while you drop your point to hit his target. That's all.

This is one of the reasons that when one lunges, the hand ends up higher ...

PK

AndrewH · 09-18-2003, 09:42 PM

In layman's terms, it's a counter attack made while sliding your blade along the opponent's blade, as to deflect their point from hitting you in the process. Opposition counterattacks and ripostes are ALWAYS one light, otherwise you did it wrong.

noodle · 09-18-2003, 10:19 PM

if you take control of their blade in that manner, wouldn't that be considered a parry?

HilandDoug · 09-18-2003, 11:22 PM

yes, but you're parrying and riposting at the same time (which, by definition, is not possible). I've also heard it called riposte with opposition.

noodle · 09-18-2003, 11:42 PM

only if you touch the blade and the target at the same time

once you touch the blade and take control is the parry, the riposte is the action between the taking control and hitting the target, with opposition or not.

right?

edew · 09-19-2003, 01:41 AM

A parry (a successful one, anyway) is when you move your blade towards your opponent's blade. A counter-attack with opposition is when you move your blade towards your opponent's target, and that having your blade and his blade touch is incidental.

This is why, when fencer A makes an attack, and fencer B makes a counter-attack with opposition, and A hits B, then A gets the point. The blade contact is incidental. B is not attempting to touch A's blade. The blades touching each other is incidental.

Talyn · 09-19-2003, 01:59 AM

You can easily try it yourself by fencing a weak newbie and start counter-attacking a lot, by the 10th one you should have a fairly good idea.

Wizardly · 09-19-2003, 02:10 AM

Ya know, Edew's definition really needs to be disseminated to a lot of bad directors. I do so very much hate seeing a bad director vacillate over the call pondering "well, there was an attack from the right, and a counter-attack from the left, and during the counter-attack there was blade contact, but was it a beat or a parry?"

Also, you can find these definition in rule t.8

Myra gave a good description of an opposition riposte.

My two cents (for what it's worth, if all these other good responses aren't enough

) you're counter attacking by putting your blade in such a position to both hit your opponent and deflect their blade from hitting you in its current line. And bear in mind (can't stress this enough, especially to poor directors), you're counter-attacking...you don't get ROW from the blade contact. Sliding isn't necessary, but in my experience, it's the most common form of the action. It's not very easy to see a CA w/O in a still shot...a video would do the trick much better or at least a series of frames.

D'Artagnan1673 · 09-19-2003, 11:11 AM

Cowpaste,

Did you stay for the finals for the Call to Arms? If you did, then you saw an excellent example of a counterattack with opposition. Conor told me he made 5 or 6 touches like that.... all one lighters his way.

edew · 09-19-2003, 12:28 PM

Better be, otherwise they wouldn't have been excellent.

Christopher J Umbs · 09-19-2003, 12:49 PM

This has already been answered well, but here's a bit more info.. the counter-attack with opposition is a stesso tempo (single time) move where defense and offense are combined in a single move as opposed to dui tempi (two time) actions like a parry-riposte. Stesso tempo actions were done far more often with historical weapons like the rapier. If you have a 40" blade, it's more difficult to make a parry riposte with it than it is to counter-attack with opposition. With lighter blades (smallsword and later) it starts to fall into disuse because the lightness of the blades means that a parry-riposte can be done in the same ammount of time as a counter-attack (both take place in one fencing time - i.e. a counter-attack and a parry-riposte should both hit before the attackers front foot lands).

Chris

Peach · 09-19-2003, 01:07 PM

A counter-attack with opposition just happened if you are hitting your opponent, her blade is tangled on or resting on your blade, only your light is on, and your opponent looks really cranky.

D'Artagnan1673 · 09-19-2003, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by edew
Better be, otherwise they wouldn't have been excellent.

That is a little pointless to mention. The whole point of the action is to get only a single light.

cowpaste · 09-19-2003, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
Cowpaste,

Did you stay for the finals for the Call to Arms? If you did, then you saw an excellent example of a counterattack with opposition. Conor told me he made 5 or 6 touches like that.... all one lighters his way.

I really wish I had.

I was there all day, and I really had to go by the time I was eliminated. Conner's form and technique is so perfect; I kinda want to drive to your club just to watch him fence.

D'Artagnan1673 · 09-19-2003, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peach
A counter-attack with opposition just happened if you are hitting your opponent, her blade is tangled on or resting on your blade, only your light is on, and your opponent looks really cranky.

My example was one that was intentional. My friend was parrying while closing distance on a fellow with great reach. His parry was performed in the same action as the ripsote. Basically, the parry sent the point past my friend's shoulder leaving him free to continue and make the touch.

Peach · 09-19-2003, 01:42 PM

Mine is intentional too

Especially the cranky expression on my opponent's face.

D'Artagnan1673 · 09-19-2003, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cowpaste
I really wish I had. I was there all day, and I really had to go by the time I was eliminated. Conner's form and technique is so perfect; I kinda want to drive to your club just to watch him fence.

Ah the said story of Conor....

Conor lives and fences around El Paso, now. He was in for two weeks to visit his parents, hence why you have never heard of a him in spite of his calibre of fencing. Maybe one day he will get a job in the Beaumont area. In that case, I will nagg him to death until he converts to epee

Not that I've seen much of the fencing world, but I have never seen anyone who could fence so clean and so good as he. He had not fenced competitively in a year or two before the outing at Call to Arms.