Marketing and fencing

[Asgaroth]

Originally posted by Craig
Get me their web dev budget and I'll get you a very prettily designed site.

So here is the problem - money.
and paradox - fencing considering an elite sport
equipment is more expensive when (let say Racquetball or Tennis) but no money around it.

Pepsi should rather create budget at least 50k for a nice educational web site portal about fencing

If I would have time and at least some budget to cover some help I would build fencing_bmw.com
May be one day.

By the way fencing101.net not bad at all
It's just me I wish it look like BMW

Again no offence and
nice discussion board

P.S. I am looking at fencing not as a sport but rather as at art which has some sport elements in it

[Asgaroth]

www.leonpaul.com - not my favorite look by any means, but it is still well done AND it looks professional.

bad done
apple like
very busy
no space
bad images
ugly colour scheme
CSS used wrong

bla bla bla
bla bla bla

AGAIN it's done ok but it's not what I would like to see.

And it seems web site is THE cheapest that to make any PR

[Rolls]

Like I said I'm not that wild about the design, but compared to a lot of sites (esp. fencing related) it's a step up. As for it being busy, please show me any e-commerce site that isn't (look at the #1 example amazon; pretty damn busy, but that equates to sells).

Hey, I think agree though. I think redesigning the USFA's site to become more of a marketing tool should be a top priority. I don't think it would cost too much either. I think realistically you could get it done for $3000 - 5000 US. Or better yet, there's a good chance you could find some company to do for free (maybe claim it as a tax right off or something). I know the company I work for does a lot of free websites for medical consultants (a small part of their business is making websites for doctors).

Rolls.

[Asgaroth]

well
3k-5k
I do not think so
If you looking for professionals who knows what they are doing?

Just redesigning sketches (like 5 different versions) will take around 1 week and 2-3 designers.

After that implementation / marketing / maintaining (well on behalf of owner)

Think about streaming video / flash introductions
Dynamic elements.

You can find smth. Cheap in India or Russia
BUT it's not always an option

Believe me I worked quite a while in this field.

It's like cars you can buy new for 9k and for 30k
9k car it still car BUT…

ask anyone who is in this field it's quite bit of skills and time if you wish to do it right.

overwise RESPECT to all your thoughts

[Rolls]

I think you're overestimating the task. Video? Why would there be video on the site. Flash intro? Definitely not a good idea (I can't think of one coporate site that has a flash intro, most don't have video either). The corporate sites are good examples to follow. They're the ones that are actually selling products with their sites... even though they aren't selling products on thier site (much like the USFA would be).

But the cost. Well, corpations usually build their's in house. So, it's quite a bit more expensive (30-60k ++ a year). You can find smaller web design shops (or a freelancer) that will do it for quite a bit cheaper, but with almost the same quality. Bear in mind that it would be mostly an informative site. There aren't a lot of products to sell or anything dynamic to be built.

But shopping for a website needn't be that expensive. Plus, why would you hire the web people to do more than just the site. Granted hiring an all out marketing firm to do a complete branding job from print to web to video would be great but that's expensive.

It doesn't need to be (nor should it) a peice of art. It just needs to be an effective tool for markting. (plenty of forms to gather info, esp. emails)

Rolls.

[Asgaroth]

not flash introduction
flash as a part of total web site concept = dynamic
video = from competitions and lessons

[rukovsoft]

on the usfa website i like the comission website.
you have lots of contents, and up to date results.

they could make it a little nicer then add a forum.
maybe put one or two videos in a corner. probably add a ^picture gallery.

i work only in flash.
some big corporations use flash.
it doesn t need to be trendy.
flash fixes problems of font, size, alignment, since evrything is embedded in the file.
here s an example:
www.arkionsystems.com

could you tell that thepqrt under the animation is flash?

flash can be used to teach, so why not make a part of the usfafencing website more kid oriented with flash...

you can mix flash and html in your fencing websites.
flash is not only for intros...
for classes description use html since it chqnges all the time.
for content that doesn t change (history of the club, location) use flash.
for up to date content (results, news) use a forum modules so that several memebers can put neweson the website without always harrassing the webmaster.

ie: .boston fencing club website

i ll replqce the news section and result section in the coming weeks by exoops (forum) modules. easy to do, and saves time

[Event Horizon]

How difficult would it be to put video online? I've noticed that some folks do take video of certain competitions and post them here (thanks Craig) and on other sites (besides the fencing footage site).

It would be nice for non-fencers and fencers to get a chance to see some footage of a local/regional/national event. It's not TV exposure, but nice way to show people what it's like and still reach a large amount of people.

So the big question: Is it worth doing you think, or more trouble than it seems and people should put their resources elsewhere?

[Craig]

I'm perfectly willing to post and archive video footage that anyone wants to contribute.

Depending on the bandwidth usage once it goes up I may limit downloading videos to people who are registered members of the forum, but there's no cost for that anyway. (Just a way to prevent hotlinking and such, and provide another member benefit.)

Craig

[edew]

(Speaking from a biased point of view here.)

My immediate need from any website is current and correct information. Second need is easily navigable information.

All the flash (as in the technology and the feel) is pointless if information is out of date or hard to access.

Information that's critical: when's the next tournament. Where's the next tournament. How much does it cost. How to do I get there.

Second level of criticalness: who won, who took second. Who's ahead in the ranking, who's DFL.

Third level: what's up and what's happening. Maybe some photos? Ooh, look at my name there!

Fourth: Hey, that's incorrect, who do I contact to correct it?

The site design in terms of color and such are useful, of course. Designs that are tough on the eyes are not conducive to good viewing.

That said, try www.thebaycup.org

[Ramrod]

The flash and glitz of a site is much less important to us everyday folks.

It's the content that counts. Up to date and useful information about comps and standings means more than flashy graphics.

Remember the old line "Where's the BEEF!"

[Wizardly]

Honestly, when I hear "marketing" and "fencing" in the same sentence, "the websites suck" is not my first reaction. My concern first goes to exposure, then support. A cool website isn't going to really market fencing unless there is a fencing website in the top 10 "coolest websites of all time."

As websites go, utility over beauty. Frankly, I get annoyed when I'm forced to sit through a flash intro when I load a website. I get annoyed when I can't copy and paste. I only use websites when I have a preexisting interest in the subject (somehow I doubt the USFA will start paying for ad space and popup ads to direct people to a fencing "sales" site.

Another reason why a cool website is LOW on the marketing priority list: I'm the only one I know that uses fencin.net or the USFA website (fencer's included). I've probably exposed at least 50 people to fencing just because they find out I do it...that's free, and some people have even taken up the sport.

[jesup]

Flash evil

:-)

Seriously, I hate sites with flash. I often browse from work on Unix machines, and generally don't have flash.

Not to mention, I find most (not all) sites with flash have a lot of "flash" but it doesn't add anything to what's available from the site. You'll note a lot of top-100 sites have no flash, or at most use it in ads or sidebars.

There's plenty one can do with HTML, CSS, DHTML, etc without going into flash, and it will work on basically any browser AND generally be easier for someone else to update in the future. (Mozilla is the primary browser on Unix's; Mozilla and Safari on Mac, and Mozilla and Safari both support CSS and DHTML well (more to the standards than IE does). Note: I'm a "driver" at mozilla.org.


For the USFA site: make it easy to find things. Make it easy to find information on fencing in general. Make it easy to find data on competitions, and even more importantly make it easy for non-specialists at USFA HQ to add results, news, competitions, etc. This one is important - it means that once it's set up, non-techies (staff) can add/modify stuff without spending more money for a web consultant.


Make it easy to find a local club. Make it easy for clubs to get themselves added. Consider something similar to the fencing.net calendar for major competitions - one problem is that people generally only know/hear about their local division competitions, and don't know what might be going on in the next state, maybe 1/2-1 hour away.

Get someone to write up post-competition reports on major competitions and post them online. Post most if not all articles from the magazine online.

On the "info on fencing" section - include a couple of "exciting" images from competitions; images of some of the top fencers, etc.

For local clubs, again, KISS. Make it easy to add news; make it easy to update the schedule, include pictures from members at competitions, put results up. Make sure that there's info on when you meet, what fencing is (or links to someone else's good rundown on fencing (see USFA discussion), etc.

None of this is surprising or a revelation, of course.

[dberke]

You know, just among people reading this thread there probably are at least 10 people who have the necessary talent and skill to put together a good USFA website.

If someone has the time, here's an idea... cull all the info out of the current USFA site and build a nice new site with the same content, but just laid out and presented better. If someone took their "Documents", "Forms", and "Scoresheets" pages and combined them into one page that actually made sense, that alone would be a vast improvement. (A scoresheet isn't a form? The rulebook isn't a document? Not according to the USFA site...)

Once the site is done, present it to the USFA! Maybe they'll even be so impressed that they'd consider using it as their site!

I'd take a crack at this if only I had the time... between my "real job", updating my division's website, and maintaining the Fencing Time software, I'm pretty swamped. (Oh yeah, and 3 nights a week actually fencing...) But I know lots of unempolyed web designers, so someone out there probably could add this to their portfolio...

I think a grassroots effort is what we need - sites like fencing101 and the new www.whatisfencing.com are (as far as I know) just passionate fencers making a contribution to the fencing community. You'd think the USFA would realize this and try to tap into it...

Dan

[Peach]

That's what we already have - a passionate effort by a volunteer. I've seen far too many places receive the "gift" of a nice web site design and then not be able to keep it up. The biggest problem with any website is maintenance.

[sabreur]

I am not sure how to market fencing.

I think the essential issue in reaching a wide audience is the "two lifetimes" thing--it takes two lifetimes to master fencing...

Fencing is a very difficult sport to do even reasonably well. It takes several years of pretty focused training to begin to develop the body knowledge and technical expertise to really understand what it is about. Many people don't have the patience or willingness to go through that training to reach the end of being a decent fencer.

I said in my Escrime rant that we need to admit that our sport is esoteric. I think we need to market it as such--it isn't easy, but it will teach you things about yourself and others that you can only learn in a few places (other martial arts, primarily).

I love the sport aspect of fencing, and competing, but what I really love about it has more to do with Zen. I don't know how you market that--hard work, focus, concentration finally help you learn things that are really important, and there are no shortcuts....

Sorry, somebody hit me with the philosophy stick...

MR

[Talen]

Speaking of Martial Arts. I think Fencing is a Martial Art. Why is it that the traditional Oriental arts are still popular? They need drills, too, and they take a lifetime (or two) to master as well. What do they have that we don't have?

This is an open ended question. I'm not sure of the answer myself, except that they do have a yardstick to measure themselves by - namely the belt system. Not that I'm advocating going around with black belts for our top fencers, but what about stripes on the off hand sleeve? Just an idea, though maybe not a good one.

[swordsen]

"Fencing is a very difficult sport to do even reasonably well. It takes several years of pretty focused training to begin to develop the body knowledge and technical expertise to really understand what it is about. Many people don't have the patience or willingness to go through that training to reach the end of being a decent fencer."

Too many fencers have this idea and this is what kills us. How are you going to recruit new fencers when they hear stuff like this? It does NOT take years to understand fencing. A person can become a decent fencer without dedicating his or her life to the sport. It takes that kind of dedication to be a world class fencer. Most of us will never be that. Most of the peopel we want to get fencign will never be that. they will be good eager fencers at the local and regional level. They will go to the nationals if they are fairly close. they may even do fairly well at them.

I get so tired of people complaining about not enough fencers then coming out with lines about how the average person can't even understand the sport without years of training. BOG!
People can understand the fencing after a good afternoon of exposure.


Sorry. rant mode off. Hit one of my sore spots there.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by swordsen
[BPeople can understand the fencing after a good afternoon of exposure.


[/b]

One caveat: They can if they really want to.

And there's the rub. The vast majority of people simply do not have that degree of interest. They have a vague, amorphous and often quite superficial curiosity which frequently doesn't survive an explanation of ROW. ( "There was no such thing in 'Zorro'." )

And without REAL interest---which we cannot force from people, but which can only come from within each individual----"thou losest labor" by sedulously trying to make anyone "get" fencing.

I return to my basic premise: fencing really interests only a tiny percentage of the overall population. We can reach more of that minority, but we simply cannot expand it by main force.

[Wizardly]

Fencing is esoteric only in the sense that not everybody does it. I'm not sure if the majority have even heard of it. However, it isn't so vague an activity, or so difficult an activity to take nearly as long as you depict. Maybe I'm the exception, but it certainly didn't take me years of training to begin to understand what it's about. And just what do you consider "decent?" Able to end up somewhere in the middle of an international tournament?

Perhaps it is a traditionalist view, a sales tactic of the classicists to explain why you should learn from such and such a master instead of someone else. Nothing could be further from the truth. It doesn't take two lifetimes of training to get fencing. It doesn't even take a day to get ROW (except when it is poorly explained). There is no sense admitting anything that is suspect to begin with...it's aking to "Clinton should just admit he's a sex addict."

The simple truth is that fencing is different things to different people. Perhaps it is esoteric to some, and they'll spout their belief to everyone that will listen (and more than likely, drive away the people they're so affraid might join the sport and put them to shame after practicing only a week compared to their two lifetimes of training). "It's very difficult and complicated" only makes people respond with, "fencing isn't tough." Even children know that when you tell someone they can't do something the immediate response is "I can do it better than you" (and it never makes it past the verbal phase).

It'll take me two lifetimes to hit a major league pitch. It'll take me two lifetimes to hit a hole in one. It'll take me two lifetimes to become a male gymnast. It'll take me two lifetimes to become a football coach. It'll take me two lifetimes to become a top tennis player. You see where I'm going with this? Better than 99% of people can't do any of these things...most people don't even do them casually, yet they still "get it," they still yell at the TV when things don't go their way, they still cheer when things go right. Hence the phrase "armchair quarterback." Calling fencing esoteric is like calling baseball esoteric because only a few hundred guys in the country understand the nuance of hitting a major league pitch.