At least the USFA is solvent...

[dnichols]

Originally posted by great bowyer
i'm sorry, but i think i've seen more soccer events being telivised than fencing events. with this in mind, i think the fencing community should raise it's self up before we start comparing ourselves to a more media successful sport. on the other hand, we can also compare to see what soccer is doing to get the attention that we are not getting.

I agree with the idea that the fencing community should raise itself up. But, come on, you oldsters. Go back in time with me to the late '70s. (That's as far back as my fencing memory can go; some of you can probably go further.) :-]

Remember when it was difficult or impossible to find out (in the US) who the reigning World Champ was in your weapon, unless it was an Olympic year? Or what the World Cup point standings were? Or who won the last Int'l A Cup? Or, heaven forbid, actually watch a world champ level competition? Unless you had a coach that went to a tournament like that and came back with a videotape (very rare, but done) or still pictures or a list of names of good fencers, ANYthing. The few tapes that were circulating in the early 80s were worth their weight in gold.

Now, we've got the internet and Fencing Footage and others. Things are out there to be seen. Sure, we're not on Sportcenter yet, but there's so much more available. I think that has directly attributed to the increased number of fencers in the US. Coaches get those tapes, show kids what big time fencing is, and suddenly they have a visual goal. Go fence like that! Way back when, (see above) it was comparable to being a basketball player, but not ever having seen Michael Jordan or Shaq. Or worse, hearing their names and having to ask, "are they good?" Unless you could go to a big int'l tournament, you simply couldn't know what your sport looked like at its highest expression of competitive acheivement. Now, it's easy! Go download a .mov file on Fencing Footage and see what it looks like.

I just think we've come a really long way. Sure, we'd love to be on Sportcenter. But keep buying tapes & dvds from vendors that are supplying us. Their business model looks like this: they start small, mom & pop, selling out of their garage. Growing fencing community demands more and more product. Mom & pop hire a couple of employees to increase their service. Increased service generates more sales. New tapes are required, so mom & pop hire additonal production teams to cover more tournaments. These turn into more sales. Mom & pop staff up. Production values go up as crews get more experience shooting the sport. They start including interviews. Fencing personalities become widely recognized. Teeming thousands at airport greet world champion coming to US for the first time. Producer at ESPN happens to be at airport bar and overhears excited fencers comparing autographed bell guards. Producer calls Chris Berman and tells him to hold the top slot on tomorrow nights Sportcenter for an exclusive interview with world champ fencer, who happens to look alot like Anna Kournikova or Kirk Douglas, pick 'em. You walk down deserted street with fencing bag over your shoulder. Limo driving by stops rolls down window enquires if you're a fencer sure I am you say well kid I'm gonna make you a star says the celebrity sports agent scouring for new talent.....

Ok, well, maybe I got a bit carried away at the end there. But anyway, I think things are better than they were.

Cheers,
-D

[zeidolon]

I don't believe for a minute that Fencing is either boring to watch, too fast, or filled with arcane rules that the average american can't understand or keep up with.

Fencing basics:
* Poke the other guy before he pokes you
* Colored light = touch, yellow light = off target
* Three 3 minute rounds, or first to 15 points.
* Three weapons, each with slightly different "valid target" areas
* Right of way: Poke the other guy while he is still winding up, or parry his attack first.

That's more than enough information to give a spectator the absolute basics to watch and have a vague notion of what is going on.

Try explaining chess to someone who has never played in two minutes or less. How about football? It is a lot more complicated than just running the ball from one end of the field to the other. How about explaining a baseball players statistics and what all the abbreviations mean? If people can keep up with the finer details of the sport of your choice, they sure as hell can keep up with the finer points of fencing (pun not intended).

Anyway, since 1989 I've lived in or near Baltimore MD, Columbia SC, Louisville KY, Denver CO, Philadelphia PE, and Raleigh NC. Not once did I ever see any advertising for fencing clubs or tournaments, or any news items, or people on the street with club t-shirts. Not a single flier either. I have always thought fencing was cool and interesting, but I had no idea that it is as big as it is in the US (meaning that most major cities have a club within driving distance). I found the local club here on my own while looking for something different to try. Boy was I surprised to find a great club less than 20 minutes from where I live.

While I do think that fencing isnt necessarily a "mass market" sport, I don't think that Chess (and a dozen other competitive sports/hobbies) is either. For the most part, they all appeal to different people with different backgrounds. Obviously there are exceptions, but generally speaking every sport has a few stereotypes that usually like and appreciate the sport.

Does fencing appeal to geek types? Fine, let's get some fliers up at comic book/RPG stores, anime conventions, libraries, chess clubs, and computer labs. Not all geeks are nerds. I think that local grassroots awareness is an important key to developing critical mass for growth in the sport. High Schools are probably the most fertile ground for finding new fencers. As many of you will probably agree, fencing is pretty damn addictive. Id guess that if you can manage to keep some high school students involved in a school team for a year, they will probably stick with it for a long time. It probably wouldnt hurt to push for more fencing scholarships either. Heck, how many have tried approaching High School history teachers instead of PE teachers? I bet a lot of history teachers would love to take some class time off while a "guest speaker" enlightens the class on interesting tidbits of swordfighting...duels, pirates, wars, calvary, presidents, actors...the list goes on.

What else? Get a website for your club, and put a one paragraph bio and a photo for every member. Publish the scores/rankings of every competition...even if its a club only one day event. Have someone write up a paragraph or two and submit it to your local community newspapers. Don't get discouraged if they don't print it. Keep sending them to the sports editor until they get the point and publish it. Even the back page of the newspaper in the lower corner is good. It's a start.

Offer free fencing classes to every radio personality, producer, and station owner in your area. Maybe they will mention how much fun they had the next time they have to fill a few seconds of air time with some banter.

Hook up with a local martial arts academy....let them do a demonstration at your club in exchange for doing one at their club. Invest in bumper stickers and t-shirts. Put a fencing decal on your SUV in the same spot every soccer mom has that huge soccerball.

Print up some generic business cards with club info and a cool fencer graphic. Leave one behind with every tip when you go out to eat, and stick "good for one free fencing lesson" on the back. Leave them behind in bookstores, cafes, and in those jars where you leave a business card to win a prize.

Practice your footwork in the mall early in the morning when all the "mall walkers" are doing their rounds. Change your email tag quote to say something about fencing.

Word of mouth and visibility on a local scale is the most important thing we can accomplish at this stage I think. As far as bigger issues, I've seen/heard a lot of complaints about politics, lack of consistency in directing, USFA management, and poor communication about tournament scheduling and details. That might take more time and effort to improve, but necessary for the next stage of growth of fencing as a national sport.

Sure, fencing will never replace football, basketball, golf, or bowling, but I firmly believe that there is a dramatic amount of growth still to be had.

Well, thats enough for my late night rant. I've got to get ready for Isabel's visit tomorrow. Hehe.

Robert

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by veeco
there were lots of other things to entertain oneself, which did not involve watching fencing.

Theater plays, to which pretty much no one goes anymore
Operas, concerts

OK, say you have a play, an opera and a concert, all playing at the same time, on different nights. That's three days out of the week. What do you do for the other four? ( Or other three if you're really pious. )

We tend to forget, with our current bewildering variety of entertainment choices, that previous generations were not so fortunate. It's even beginning to get hard to find people living who remember those days---but my mom grew up without TV and mostly without radio. My dad lived in Montana in the 30s and 40s, when there was one automobile in the county. Read some biographies or collections of letters or journals written in the 19th century and you will get some idea how few and far between opportunities for diversion were, especially for those of modest means or in rural areas....

books to be read,

Mostly available to the leisured classes, expensive and, due to problems with transport, not as widely available as today ( and in far more limited numbers ). Serials in newspapers were much more the order of the day.

radio shows, that no one listens to anymore,

Well, they didn't listen to them then, either----radio didn't get into the entertainment business until well into the early 20th century...

What did fencing have over all these things that it could not have over TV, the internet, or whatever, if it was done properly?

Even in its heyday, I doubt that the "crowds" fencing matches drew exceeded the number we get at an NAC today. Probably most were practitioners on some level, come to watch giants, as we would probably go to watch Podzniakov fence. I daresay it was more like a polo match, with well-to-do gentlefolk paying for entrance, than the masses...

[veeco]

Originally posted by Inquartata
OK, say you have a play, an opera and a concert, all playing at the same time, on different nights. That's three days out of the week. What do you do for the other four? ( Or other three if you're really pious. )

We tend to forget, with our current bewildering variety of entertainment choices, that previous generations were not so fortunate. It's even beginning to get hard to find people living who remember those days---but my mom grew up without TV and mostly without radio. My dad lived in Montana in the 30s and 40s, when there was one automobile in the county. Read some biographies or collections of letters or journals written in the 19th century and you will get some idea how few and far between opportunities for diversion were, especially for those of modest means or in rural areas....

Please! You tell me you actually believe that those 1000s of people were coming from a rural area? You are telling me that people in rural areas actually wanted to go see a play? I'm sorry, this must be a different world... For the record, I was grown up on a farm. Entertainment on a farm consists of chores, going fishing, hunting, and the occasional fair or village bal...

Mostly available to the leisured classes, expensive and, due to problems with transport, not as widely available as today ( and in far more limited numbers ). Serials in newspapers were much more the order of the day.

I believe Gutemberg was not from the early 20th century... This was not stone age!

Well, they didn't listen to them then, either----radio didn't get into the entertainment business until well into the early 20th century...

Yes, this is the time I am talking about. Nadi's matches were held at this time, around the 1920-1930 timeframe...

Even in its heyday, I doubt that the "crowds" fencing matches drew exceeded the number we get at an NAC today. Probably most were practitioners on some level, come to watch giants, as we would probably go to watch Podzniakov fence. I daresay it was more like a polo match, with well-to-do gentlefolk paying for entrance, than the masses...

The crowds exceeded what you get at a NAC, since I am talking about thousands of people, while a NAC doesn't draw hardly any spectators at all. And I am not talking about tournaments, but matches, that were pretty much staged as boxing matches.
Maybe it was like a polo match, but then, what's the problem with that? At least in polo they do get people to show up and watch it. Some even pay a hefty sum to do so. I don't see what's wrong with it.
Saying that fencing cannot attract a viewership is giving up without putting a fight up, and ignoring that it has done so in the past. I am pretty sure we could get polo match watchers to enjoy watching fencing, and pay large amounts of money to do so if it was done right.

[edew]

Veeco, Inq's view of fencing is based on his lack of seeing how some others put on a show. His only exposure to something that isn't the generic NAC is the Duel In The Desert. And that's if he attended the gala evening event. I don't recall if he was there or not in previous years.

The Kendall-Jackson tournament this past August, for example, was held under a large tent on one raised strip. There were hundreds of people there, sipping wine, eating fine food (not as good as last year's...I might not be so helpful next year unless they up the level of the food), chatting with their neighboring dinner guests about how their winery's doing or whether they plan on sailing in Greece next summer...and watching fencing.

Each one paid $250 or more to sit and watch the entertainment. And with several of us roving fencing ambassadors (people like me who moved from table to table explaining the intricacies of the sport and whether one can get one's eye poked out or not) helping the general audience, most of the guests came out with a grand old time.

I'm sure the 'Stro Memorial Cruise and Fencing Competition will get a lot of captive audience (we'll, they're not going to jump off the side of the ship, right) as well.

There are ways to get a good audience. My feeling is make it intimate and chi-chi with an air of eliteness to it. The opposite of the XFL, say.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by veeco
Please! You tell me you actually believe that those 1000s of people were coming from a rural area? You are telling me that people in rural areas actually wanted to go see a play?

Excuse me, but---what? I'm not sure what you're getting at here. It has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. Which point was---life before the modern era was much slower of pace, more sedate, and less hectic than it is today. And the opportunities for entertainment in any form were fewer, even if you lived in a big city, because lacking economies of scale the expense involved in most was simply too great for most people to indulge in very often. It wasn't a matter of "Hey, I make $1000 a week, I can rent a movie or go to a concert or whatever every night if I want". It was, for many, scrimp and save in order to go to one such event a month.

As for people in rural areas wanting to see plays---whatever that might have to do with anything---travelling shows were quite popular. So were fairs, carnivals, and church pageants. Why? Because the thirst for any sort of break in just the sort of dull routine of the same old chores, the same few old pastimes with the same familiar faces was so great.

If nothing else, read some of the books written in the 19th century. Journals and letters are better, but even novels will give you some sense of how slow-paced life tended to be----and of how eagerly people grasped at anything out of the ordinary, entertainment-wise...

I believe Gutemberg was not from the early 20th century... This was not stone age!

No, and neither was Gutenberg immediately followed by an age of a library in every home or even in every city. Most of the books written in the history of mankind were written in the last 100 years. Likewise most of the books published...and certainly most of the books published and sold within reach of the ordinary family's pocketbook.

Yes, this is the time I am talking about. Nadi's matches were held at this time, around the 1920-1930 timeframe...

Sorry, it wasn't clear from your first post---you said "the 1900s", and said thar fencing was more popular "than it was then", without defining "then". Sorry for the confusion...

But you know, this argument could be applied to a lot of things. Franz Liszt in his day was the rock star of the time...but despite a lot of money and effort, and yes even televised concerts, what do you get when you poll people about their musical preferences? Certainly NOT Liszt, and except for a small percentage of the population NOT classical music, period. People's tastes have changed, toward the loud and the flashy, which over time they tend to do. I cannot think of a time when they changed in the other direction...and likewise they aren't going to go back from "extreme" sports to ones like fencing...

I think Nadi may have been like Liszt, a...dare I use the word on this forum? Fluke?

The crowds exceeded what you get at a NAC, since I am talking about thousands of people, while a NAC doesn't draw hardly any spectators at all.

Oh, sure they do. The crowds are just family and friends of fencers, for the most parts.

You get relatively few completely uninformed but interested spectators...and while we can never know, I suspect you got fewer of those at Nadi's exhibitions, either...

Maybe it was like a polo match, but then, what's the problem with that? At least in polo they do get people to show up and watch it. Some even pay a hefty sum to do so. I don't see what's wrong with it.

Nothing is wrong with it, but it isn't what we're discussing. We're talking about fencing's appeal to a MASS market, not to a few hundred or even thousand well-heeled sorts. See many televised polo matches?

Saying that fencing cannot attract a viewership is giving up without putting a fight up,

If twenty guys with guns show up at your door, do you "put up a fight" or do you just accept that fighting is useless and think of something else? Some battles are obviously lost causes, and "fighting" is not noble, it's just stupid...

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by edew
Veeco, Inq's view of fencing is based on his lack of seeing how some others put on a show.

Eh, with respect, Eric, what does "putting on a show" have to do with anything?

Sure, we could probably attract big-time viewership to fencing with "showmanship". But then people would be coming to watch the SHOW, not the fencing. And it certainly wouldn't bring any more participants into the sport for its own sake.

Duel In The Desert. And that's if he attended the gala evening event. I don't recall if he was there or not in previous years.

I was---but then, like virtually everyone there I am a fencer...

We aren't talking about getting more fencers ( and their families ) to watch fencing, surely, are we?

The Kendall-Jackson tournament this past August, for example, was held under a large tent on one raised strip. There were hundreds of people there, sipping wine, eating fine food (not as good as last year's...I might not be so helpful next year unless they up the level of the food), chatting with their neighboring dinner guests about how their winery's doing or whether they plan on sailing in Greece next summer...and watching fencing.

And I'd be willing to bet that you have correctly rank-ordered their motivations for being there as you ennumerated them, too. I seriously doubt that it was the fencing which attracted them.

See, I think you're talking about something else entirely. I, and I think Veeco as well, are talking about whether fencing itself can ever attract crowds of the magnitude some envision---enough to get mass media coverage in its own right and turn fencing into a truly big-time sport. You, it seems to me, are talking about whether there are any extraordinary measures which might be able to attract lots of people to a fencing event for ANY reason---and of course there are, if nothing else you could certainly pay people to attend tournaments or exhibitions, if you were both wealthy and insane. But I don't think that addresses the root question of: can fencing qua fencing, without basic changes in its nature, ever appeal to large numbers of people on its own merits?

[Rolls]

Well, I don't necessarily think you have to be a fencer to enjoy fencing, but I do think it helps.

I would say that's not a problem. Every indication I've seen points to a rise in particiapation in fencing at all levels (at as far as the US goes), a trend that I don't think will slow down anytime soon. Personally, I think particiaption will slowly rise until the US wins a gold, then it will surge, then it will drop off slightly, then it level out, but it will have become a serious and understood sport among the US population. You won't have people asking "Is that sharp?"

So, I think the popularity of fencing as a spectator sport Is on the rise. And the main reason is that more people are fencing.

Rolls.

[pammie003]

There is definitely an interest out there. I had to carry my fencing bag accross campus and to a few classes last week. I didn't have time to go home in between and get my stuff like I normally do. I was asked so many questions that I was almost late for class. Later that night, at practice, I regognized quite a few people that I had talked to earlier that day. 3 practices so far, and they're still coming.

I am considering turning myself into a walking fencing billboard...

[Inquartata]

Sigh. Optimists. What can you do with them?

[cowpaste]

Originally posted by pammie003
There is definitely an interest out there. I had to carry my fencing bag accross campus and to a few classes last week. I didn't have time to go home in between and get my stuff like I normally do. I was asked so many questions that I was almost late for class. Later that night, at practice, I regognized quite a few people that I had talked to earlier that day. 3 practices so far, and they're still coming.

I am considering turning myself into a walking fencing billboard...

Were they males? Are you hot? If so, that explains it all.... :P

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Hey, Horndog! Take a cold shower!

Maybe she's just a great ambassador and spokesperson for the sport.

[Rolls]

Well, like I said I've seen actual numbers increase. In my city, I would say we have twice the number of regular fencers than a year ago. That's growth.

The local tournament that I went to had 28 fencers. It was an E and under. Last year, the same tournament would have struggled to hit the 15 mark. Maybe this region has more room to grow, but when I went to Summer Nationals in Austin Div III Men's Foil supposedly hit some record. Does anyone know what that was? Or if it is in fact true. I would say that meas that more people are begining to fence competively on a natinonal level. Many of those people will continue to advance. SO, I would say it's fair to say that you'll see increased numbers in Div II and eventually the higher levels too.

Rolls.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Sigh. Optimists. What can you do with them?

eat them.

(or put them in too-tight thongs)

(and then eat them)

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Just be careful. If the thong is TOO tight, contents may be under pressure!

[JEC]

Hey Capt. you scared my friend (EM81) away. Let's drop the thong out of the forum for at least a while.
FYI: I don't do DVCam, only all 8s and miniDVs formats. But if you acquire it as AVI (best) or MPEG file, I can work with it.

[pammie003]

Were they males? Are you hot?

*Sigh* Yes, and um... maybe? Dunno. I was hoping they were sincerely interested though.

Sigh. Optimists. What can you do with them?

I've got to be an optimist while I still have the chance (read: until I leave this protective University environment). Just sit back and let me enjoy it while it lasts!