Grip contact with lame

[rsy]

Can anyone enlighten me on the effect of fencer A's uninsulated grip coming into contact with his own lame? Specifically, if fencer B made a touch on fencer A's lame while fencer A's grip was in contact with his own lame, would no lights show? Or a white light? Or would the appropriate colored light show?

If there is an effect in this circumstance, could it be duplicated by fencer A's glove and jacket being soaked in sweat and a salt bridge forming between Fencer A's uninsulated grip and his lame?

Would the answer be the same if the scoring machine being used was of an older design (old enough that the floor cords have to be plugged into the opposite sockets to show the touch on the correct side).

Your input is appreciated.

[CarlKnoch]

If you have an uninsulated grip and you touch your lame with it, your weapon becomes an extension of your lame. Bummer deal if they touch off on your bell guard while you are against your lame.

If fencer A has the grip against his lame, and B hits on the lame, on the blade, on the bellguard, it should all register as on target.

If your hand and jacket are drenched in sweat, it's possible for your uninsulated grip to cause the same problem just from gripping the weapon tightly. Same problem with a mask that has a bib that is drenched with sweat. It can become a bib that registers on target, but these aren't all that likely.

[DJ Apostrophe]

Carl has it right... except....
if it is an older scoring box, if fencer A holds his grip against himself, he is 'grounding himself out', this has the effect of a hit anywhere on the lame behaving like a hit on the bellguard, meaning fencer B would not turn on a light at all. This is why the circuitry was changed. (or more correctly, it was changed because people could cheat this way).

-w

[rsy]

QUOTE]Originally posted by DJ Apostrophe
...if it is an older scoring box, if fencer A holds his grip against himself, he is 'grounding himself out', this has the effect of a hit anywhere on the lame behaving like a hit on the bellguard, meaning fencer B would not turn on a light at all. [/QUOTE]

DJ,

Thanks so much. I thought that this might be the answer and I think it explains what happend to my son at a tournament this weekend. The scoring box was an older one supplied by Triplette.

When he would test on his opponent's lame, he would get a colored light, but when he fenced, his touches did not register at all. He would ask to test and would get a light, but when fencing continued he again could not get the machine to register any hit at all.

The DE was going into the third period when I asked my son to test with a little more force. No light! 4 different body cords, 3 different weapons (all 3 weapons were properly taped just before the tournament and had no rips, tears, holes or bare spots) and changing sides on the strip had no effect. If the touch was made lightly, a light showed. If it was made with any force at all, no light. They replaced the scoring machine but the replacement was the same model as the original machine.

At first, the replacement box seemed to work, but then the problem again appeared. At this point I insisted that a different machine be use. The bout was moved to a different strip with a new model machine and the problem disappeared. Unfortunately, at this point my son was behind 13-5 with less than 2 mins in the 3d period. He staged a great come back, but couldn't go all the way.

Is it possible that what was happening was that when the touch was made with any force, it pushed the lame into contact with the wet jacket thereby completeing the salt bridge, but a lighter touch when testing would not cause the salt bridge to form? Also, the time taken to locate and replace the scoring box might have been long enough for the jacket to dry out so the salt bridge diappeared at first when the scoring machine was replaced, but returned soon after fencing recommenced.

One more fact, this same thing happend to a different fencer at the tournament in another bout, on a different strip, but with the same model scoring box. Fortunately, the problem was picked up right at the start of the bout, the machine was replaced with a newer BG box and the problem did not reappear.

[CarlKnoch]

Being in fencing for just a little over a year, I have not seen an older box. LOL

I also find references to rules changes hilarious, as they were before I started really paying attention to the rules.

Thanks DJ

[Wizardly]

rsy, I can verify that it is in fact a problem with an uninsulated grip and too much sweat in a glove; I had an identical event happen to me. Nothing ruins your day more than being ahead 9-1 at the first break and losing 15-10. This happened on an older box. I do not know what effect a newer box would have.

The moral of the story: insulate your grips.

Other fun side effects of too much sweat and an uninsulated grip:
New box: shocks to the hand (not strong, but painful)
New box: blade being registered as valid target
Either box: yellow lights go off. It's sad, but I don't think many referees know what the yellow lights are for.

[veeco]

Originally posted by Wizardly
It's sad, but I don't think many referees know what the yellow lights are for.

It is sad indeed... Not many fencers know it either... ;-)

[downunder]

the 'rear extremity' of foil grips has to be insulated, if you check ur rules

[NJP3]

Right, but if the whole thing is insulated then you dont get any shocks or light problems, its not that big a deal to pay an extra few bucks for a painted grip.

[downunder]

or spary it urself

[Wizardly]

Pardon my ignorance, but spray paint works? Or is there something particular we should be looking for in spray paint?

While I'm being ignorant, is there anything special one should do to the grip before spraying?

[downunder]

wipe it off, get any grease or sweat off it....

i use anti-rust epoxy paint...... works good

[rsy]

To DJ & Wizardly: Thanks for your responses, I think you have solved this riddle.

But, I am now wondering just how old these scoring boxes were, and if their circuitry allowed for the lame to be grounded out, were they allowed to be used in a sanctioned youth competition as part of the RYC?

The boxes were old enough that the floor cords had to be reversed to show the lights on the correct side. Does anyone know the year when the rule went into effect reversing the side the light showed on? How about the year that the rule went into effect which changed the circuitry to prevent a lame from being grounded out?

Lastly, what are the rules for use of such out-dated scoring equipment in a regional competition like the RYC's? I read the USFA rules, but they seem to relate only to the Olympics, World Cups and FIE events.

As I read back over this post I am wondering if this is all just too esoteric and if I am exhibiting my obsessive nature again?

[DJ Apostrophe]

The rule for the lights happened before the 99-00 season (IIRC).

I don't know when the circuitry changed.


as to the boxes being used in the RYC, RYCs are seen by many (including organizers of some of the events) as development competitions (not to say they are or arent... but whatever...) so its more important that the kids get the experience of being in a larger tournament, rather than having it tightly controlled like a NAC or world championships.

As a result of that, when the organizer of the RYC is getting together strip equipment to run the tournament, it is a situation of getting the 'best available' equipment, on a budget of course.

Some of these boxes are 4-5 years old. Still in fine shape, still work OK and are used because they work.

If the people who run the RYCs (and any other tournament) were made to invest in newer boxes to confirm to little rules changes (switching the lights was not a big change, and the grounding circuitry is usually ok, and only causes problems once in a while) they wouldn't have enough money to actually run the tournament.

It ends up being a compromise of having the 'best equipment' and having the 'best tournament'. Many times, in a budget, having the 'best tournament' means using slightly older equipment, in exchange for: A: Better Venue, B: More/Better Refs C:Lower Tournament Cost for Fencers / Parents.

I hope that this makes some sense.

-w

[neevel]

'Anti-blocking' boxes have been the norm for at least the past decade. It's not unheard of for programming errors in the PROM of a box to leave anti-blocking disabled (this happened with one of the earlier bug-fix upgrades for the Eigertek-- it was promptly rectified). The Triplette boxes, especially the earlier ones, have earned a reputation for flaky behavior-- there are some bugs in the logic and basic circuit design, and they seem to be rather susceptible to getting spoofed by sweat bridges and parasitic capacitances due to sweat (if you ever have a half-hour or so to kill at an NAC, you can ask Joe Byrnes or Ron Herman for a full explication of the issues). Let's just say that there are reasons why they were replaced with the current batch of SG-12s for NACs.

There is no stock of "official" equipment to be used for RYCs-- the RYCs are run entirely by the local organizers, and will use whatever equipment they have available (i.e., divisional and club equipment). Divisions and clubs, of course, don't have the money to go out and replace all of their older but functional boxes (and purchase upgrade firmware for the newer ones) just because they don't comply with all of the details of the most recent FIE specs.

-Dave

[DHCJr]

Anti-blocking was required for the 1984 Olympics, the rule was approved for the 1982-1983 Season.

At the 2000 Junior World Championship they had two types of machines an Uhlmann/Allstar colaberation and some St. George. The Uhlmann/Allstar did not require the cords to be crossed to conform to the On Target Lights to be on the scoring fencers side. The cords on the St. George had to be crossed.

This caused some problems when they started sabre. The white lights on the St. George machines were on the opposite side from the on target lights, while the Uhlmann/Allstar were on the same side when set to sabre. This caused some problem for at least one of the directors.

Even World Championships do not have the latest and greatest. But also the FIE broke its own rule and made a change in the middle of a season.