Dynamic Lessons

[jspierre]

My lessons, though very good in so many ways, are not that 'dynamic'. In other words, they never simulate bouting, and while they establish some kind of teaching tempo and rhythm, they don't really go beyond that. I'm wondering if coaches reserve a dynamic lesson for very advanced fencers, or if they are generally not really the norm anyway. When I see such a lesson, it's something between free fencing, and an up-tempo lesson, but structured within some teaching bounds.

Are your lessons dynamic? Does your coach require you to read-react with various actions in simulated bouting? Do you feel that you're missing something in order to bring your game to the next level by not having this type of instruction?

[wflaschka]

I, too, was brought up on "rehearsed" actions -- fundamentally, high-level drills.

I did that for a while when I started giving lessons, but noticed that the actions weren't translating into bouting. The improvement wasn't fast enough for me.

Now my lessons are structured:

[1] Technical / hand / hitting warm-up.
[2] Thoughtless random actions, interspersed with repetitive thoughtless random drills (for unvaried reinforcements of new / problem actions)
[3] Thoughtful drills (rehearsed situational)

Where thoughtless=reflexive, and thoughtful=constructed. (I'm in a rush, or I'd try to make more sense.)

Phase 2 of the lessons start with simple distance, then a few lunges from the student. Then, a few adv-lunges. Then, slowly working in, attack-parry-riposte. Attacks w/ disengage, parry riposte. Attacks into preparation (coach starts with foot first). Withheld attacks (flicks). The actions start getting long and exhausting, but when it breaks down it's very clear to the student what they did wrong. Towards the end, coach (me) starts offering different reactions (adding a disengageable parry, counterattacking) and the student must learn to travel a short decision tree from there.

After a while, these all start getting mixed up, and the lesson feels very much like a bout. In short order, the students become quite sophisticated in their reactions do different stiumuli, and moreover, all this seems to translate very quickly to live bouting.

Gotta fly!

[Artisan]

My Lessons (epee) are dynamic in the sense that footwork and distance are as critical as the blade work actions. We work down the strip, switch positions and continue the other direction, I'm almost always retreating. Coach alternates hands, working me on the same action right and left handed Unless we are working on a specific attack. The lesson starts with simple familiar actions, then actions are strung together, then new or problematic ones are introduced. Difficulty usually increases compound attacks, multiple intentions - but all predictable in terms of the cues from instructor. If that goes well, he will then add in unexpected elements to those previousely practiced to see if I respond properly. This last bit most closely resembles a bout but only lasts briefly for the few exchanges I'm able to sustain before making a mistake. Then back to the last set I completed successfully a couple times for reinforcement I imagine that as my skill grows, the final exchanges will become more complex, as I have seen with other more advanced fencers.

The lesson concludes with an admonition to focus on completing the practiced actions in free bouting without regard for winning, as well as specific pointers regarding style and strategy.

[scarlet_woman156k]

The lessons I get depend on the time of the fencing season. Right now, we basically go back to square one and review EVERYTHING, even a basic advance...just to make sure if anything problematic with technique that might have developed over the last season gets checked out and corrected so it doesn't migrate into the new one.

During the climax of the season, the lessons are very dynamic, but overall there is an underlining structure that remains consistant with all of my lessons, similar to what wflaschka outlined above.

I love my coach! And every season there is a deeper awareness of what is being communicated to me. The subtleness of my coach's instruction I was blind to the season before becomes apparent and another light goes on that ultimately makes me a better student to that instruction. It's really weird. Anyway, that paragraph was an irrelevant rant.

[neevel]

It depends on the coach, his/her teaching approach and assesment of what you need. A good coach will give both slow, measured lessons to allow detailed work on items of technique and recognition & decision making, and then some more active lessons to simulate executing "under fire". Some coaches like to try and get the technical aspects dead perfect with deliberately-paced lessons before kicking up the intensity, others will bring in faster-paced lessons sooner.

There are risks and benefits to both approaches. On the one extreme you can get fencers who'll be doing nothing but performing clean, technically perfect etudes on the strip while their opponents pick them apart with strategy, tactics, and tempo. On the other extreme, you may end up with fencers whose tactical decisions, however good they may be, come to naught because they can't execute effectively due to poor technique.

Typically, beginners will get technical lessons and slow-paced tactical lessons, with fast-paced tactical lessons introduced as the student progresses. Truly good coaches will be able to adapt their teaching approach and content to the temperment and needs of individual students, rather than having a cookie-cutter, one-way-for-everyone teaching method.

-Dave

[danp]

Man, this board is truly useful - I was thinking about this subject just yesterday as I am working with a new foil coach.

For what it's worth, to me (and this is just what works for me) one really important key to a "dynamic" coach is one who is current and active in the sport.

Whether through ref'ing competitions or actively competing, having a coach who is current and active in the sport is giving me a more real-world application of what works and why.

In all the lessons I've taken, the one's that made the most headway were taught by coaches who would move around and fence with me, watch me fence opponents, and had practical advice. They could *show* me, not just tell me.

The lessons that did not work were those that simply drilled repetitive footwork, point-on-target, arm extension form, etc... These are important things, but not without the understanding and application in real-world situations. I just can't learn via the old rote school of memorization and repetition without comprehension. Perhaps some can. Everyone is different.

In the end, I'll have to unlearn a lot of bad habits that were formed via my lack of comprehension during rote-teaching... I guess I understand now that "smart" fencing isn't easy to learn, and nearly impossible without a good coach.

One side note: It's hard to teach people. Coaches get burned out, overloaded with students and in many cases separated from practicing and enjoying the sport themselves.. When looking for a coach, I won't be putting so much emphasis on how many students they've had and how long they've been teaching, but on how they teach *me*. Are they energetic? Do they have a real world understanding for the weapon I'm trying to learn? Am I getting a customized lesson, or is it just the same lesson repackaged without looking at my needs?

Up until recently, the best lesson I'd ever taken was from a guy in Vail Colorado... I was on vacation there and found a flyer for lessons. This coach actually fenced with me, and he was good! We'd practice something in the traditional rote way, then he'd let me try it out so it sank in.

Granted, if he'd had 50 students in a day, all of that fencing would be exhausting. That's why I really like coaches who limit their student base.. quality over quantity.

Hope this was a little useful.

-D

[MyrddinsPrecint]

generally, my coach watches me fence for a bit with other people before he gives a lesson, then we'll free fence for a bit, and my coach will work on a problem or two he's noticed, or pick a skill i don't seem to use, and make me work on it.

{sabre}

for instance- he'll get me to attack head, by consistantly going backwards, and never parrying head. then, once i do that, he'll start parrying head consistantly every time, until i start feinting. then he'll only parry head if i feint convincingly. the whole time he wanted me to start feinting more, and feint better, but he also wanted me to think about what i was doing enough to discover what i was doing on my own. if i don't pick up on something after a little bit, he'll tell me, but he tries to let me figure it out.

i think it's a good mix of dynamic and static, because he has a clear goal, he has a very good idea of what he wants me doing, and a progression of what he wants me doing, however, like in a real bout, i have to figure out what's going to work. this develops the muscle memories of what i need to do, as well as the critical thinking skills that i need.

[jspierre]

Thank you to everybody. These were great replies and I'd like to read more; I don't think this subject has really been fully explored yet, but it's a start. A bottom up view of the lesson, from the student's perspective, and widely shared can only help the quality of training. There's so much that goes into being a truly excellent coach, and the gap in talent among coaches seems wider than the fencers. You've got the European contingent, that has made a deep impression on US fencing, and probably elsewhere, then there's the home grown coaches, some quite remarkable, and others struggling to organize their approach to training fencers.

I think that we probably have too many coaches that calibrate the level of technical training and progression well to individual fencers, but don't consistently coach thru the entire life cycle of a fencer's potential. Some fencers switch coaches to reach the next level, and some remain where they are, perhaps oblivious to the plateau they've reached, and unable to get the stimulation from their exisiting coach, but unaware of the problem.

A well orchestrated dynamic approach to higher level teaching seems necessary to advance fencers to the next level. Coaches would have to work harder to make such lessons valuable, and challenging. And, it is true that the good coaches are over-loaded, at least in my club.

I don't know how to effect the change, and am not convinenced that a direct conversation with my coach is warranted just yet, in my case, but for others, I think a talk would perhaps help move things forward.

We need to benchmark coaching excellence in the US to top quality coaching elsewhere in the world, then import and adopt techniques to lift our fencers, at all levels.

[OCTAVIA]

My impression of your question is that you are wondering if any of us have had the pleasure of a lesson with a highly skilled maestro, willing to go all the way in an unrehearsed yet amazing level, the answer is ..... not really. Most lessons are- advance advance advance into a few lunges; checking the stance; then the possibility of a drill with advance/retreats, with some minor corrections. But to have a lesson that utilizes many attacks with retreat and advances, changing tempo, without a lot of stopping is rare. For a maestro to be able to recall the exact sequence of what a student has done, and duplicate it at a 'bouting' speed, is not common, but something we all look forward to. Hope that helps?