Epee, Foil or Sabre?

[Asgaroth]

question
Epee / Foil / Sabre
what weapon is the most popular?
and why?

it seems Sabre is not that popular.

[westcoastsabre]

It should be!

Foil most followed by epee sabre comes at an undeserving third

[pkt]

1. foil; ...because most coaches insist on the wrong-heade opinion that everyone should start off having a background in foil. See the relevant thread on the merits or not of starting in foil.
2. epee, ...it is the cheapest weapon to compete in equipmentwise and rules-wise: no RoW. Some people either because they themselves can't hack the RoW or that they have had bad experience with the refs;
and
3. sabre - my weapon of choice though I, like almost everyone else, started in foil - was the least expensive but now the most expensive weapon to compete in. OTOH, it went from the most nightmarish weapon to ref to the easiest, best-defined, almost classical weapon esp. if one compares with foil and no flick attacks which refs detest and consequently make ambiguous mistakes calling attacks. Sabre seems to be the easiest weapon to pick up but is in fact the most difficult simply because of sabre cuts' 'similarity' to the natural cut, instinctive cutting from the shoulder. NOT. Hence most people have to unlearn the 'natural' cuts as required in 'proper' military sabres, and relearn the proper cutting technique as used in sport sabre fencing: with ONLY the fingers.

Having fenced all 3 weapons, the FUN quotient is this:
1. Sabre,
2. epee.
3. foil as long as flick attacks are not properly called.

Hope this helps,

PK

[downunder]

Originally posted by pkt
2. epee, ...it is the cheapest weapon to compete in equipmentwise and rules-wise: no RoW. Some people either because they themselves can't hack the RoW or that they have had bad experience with the refs;

pfft, epees are more expensive than foils and sabres - just because we don't have lames, doesn't mean ur weapon is that much cheaper.

and epee refereeing can be as controversial as foil or sabre, rather than looking at ROW, timing and the position of the fencers is often the point of debate.

[pkt]

DU,

Take stock of the number of pieces of equipment that the poor - in both sense of the word - sabreur has to have that an eppist do not have:
From head downward:
2 Mask wire, CAD10;
Lame' CAD 275+ vs the cheaper foil lame;
electric sabre glove or electric manchette.

don't forget the sabre mask because of the electric bib will not last as long as an epee or foil mask.Of course one can always get Leon Paul's X-Change sabre mask. have you checked out the price of one of those as well as the price of the replacement bibs?

OK I admit, as an epeeist you may need more epees because of the finicky points. OTOH, sabreurs need more back-up blades. OK, epee require maraging blades and sabre cannot use maraging blades. [Poor conductivity.]

Epee is the most difficult to ref:
Most of the time nothing happens.
when something happens, al H--l breaks lose. So as a ref, it's most important, though difficult, to stay awake and be aware fo the tricks. e.g. fencing at the edge of the piste, point down. When one is ready to attack, bring the point down to hit the tape first...hey, it's been done. I've seen it done...


PK

[OCTAVIA]

Saber=most fun
Foil = second most fun
epee= most challenging

Saber=for most daring
epee=for second most daring
foil = for least daring

Epee= most difficult to master
foil = second most dificult to master
saber= third most difficult to master
[getting ready to hear the screams of protest]

[the board went scientific this morning so I got scared]

good question: one thing we could do is analyze factors of fencing:

fun, challenge, mastery, daring, ---what else? then rate them giving Epee the overall winning score!

[afc fencer]

Id say they are all equaly daring, challenging, and hard to master.

[Talyn]

It takes an equal amount of training to become 'master's of the weapons... now that its been said... No one can ever MASTER a weapon

[downunder]

Originally posted by pkt
DU,

Take stock of the number of pieces of equipment that the poor - in both sense of the word - sabreur has to have that an eppist do not have:
From head downward:
2 Mask wire, CAD10;
Lame' CAD 275+ vs the cheaper foil lame;
electric sabre glove or electric manchette.

don't forget the sabre mask because of the electric bib will not last as long as an epee or foil mask.Of course one can always get Leon Paul's X-Change sabre mask. have you checked out the price of one of those as well as the price of the replacement bibs?

point conceded.....

[canthidefromme]

Originally posted by downunder
pfft, epees are more expensive than foils and sabres - just because we don't have lames, doesn't mean ur weapon is that much cheaper.

I'll buy your epee if you buy my foil lame.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Originally posted by downunder
point conceded.....

Do not concede the point yet. I cannot speak for everyone, but I find epee to be far more expensive than foil.

When I went to epee, I purchased an FIE jacket, knickers, plastron and mask due to the harder hitting nature of epee. Epee can be gentle when touches are made to the hand, but a rough fleche to the chest can sting just a bit.

Lets go past the clothing aspect and look at weapons.

Good Lame' = 100 - 130
decent foil = 70
decent foil = 70
decent foil = 70

we have $310-$340 with three weapons and a lame'.

Epee
PKT metioned FIE blades for epee. I agree as they are more durable.

FIE Epee - $140
FIE Epee - $140
FIE Epee - $140

That runs $420 without body cords without more protective clothing (if you choose to do so)

It seems that FIE foils are $20 - $30 cheaper than epees. On the other hand, foilists must have a lame. None the less I find epee more expensive because I think that epeeists tend to buy FIE gear more than exclusive foilists. I get this idea from observing the gear at epee events.

[Philistine]

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
Do not concede the point yet. I cannot speak for everyone, but I find epee to be far more expensive than foil.
{snip}

Umm... wasn't the point conceded with regard to epee's comparison to sabre, rather than to foil?

--Philistine

[OCTAVIA]

You have the wrong spirit, money has no bearing on the type of weapon you choose. We talk alot about the economy in some threads, but's that's because fencers also have a social conscience and the forum is a place in which to express the sentiments of recent events in the nation. As far as mastering a weapon if you stay with something for 20 or 30 years, I hope you do master something from it. Anyway, good luck in school and sharpen those pencils.

[veeco]

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
Do not concede the point yet. I cannot speak for everyone, but I find epee to be far more expensive than foil.

When I went to epee, I purchased an FIE jacket, knickers, plastron and mask due to the harder hitting nature of epee. Epee can be gentle when touches are made to the hand, but a rough fleche to the chest can sting just a bit.

Lets go past the clothing aspect and look at weapons.

Good Lame' = 100 - 130
decent foil = 70
decent foil = 70
decent foil = 70

we have $310-$340 with three weapons and a lame'.

Epee
PKT metioned FIE blades for epee. I agree as they are more durable.

FIE Epee - $140
FIE Epee - $140
FIE Epee - $140

That runs $420 without body cords without more protective clothing (if you choose to do so)

It seems that FIE foils are $20 - $30 cheaper than epees. On the other hand, foilists must have a lame. None the less I find epee more expensive because I think that epeeists tend to buy FIE gear more than exclusive foilists. I get this idea from observing the gear at epee events.

You're not comparing apples with apples, though. You're comparing apples with oranges. I think that foilists have the same grounds to buying FIE equipment as epeeists do.

First off, I'd like to point out that Smirnov who died the most widely known deadly episode in fencing, was a foilist. This was before the FIE upped it's requirements in protection, was a foilist. So the protection levels of FIE gear are definitely necessary in foil.

Second, plastrons are required at all USFA competitions, in ANY weapon. And they cost the same whatever weapon you fence, so they are a fixed cost.

Now if you want to buy the cheap stuff to fence foil, then so be it. You are more into epee, so you want to have FIE epees, I understand that. But someone who's into foil will prefer to have an FIE blade as well, because they are of a better quality.

I will also point out that if you choose to do so, you can buy a French grip for epee, which is in general cheaper than a pistol grip, which is pretty much required if you want to fence foil seriously. For example at The Fencing Post, the cheapest French grip is $10, whereas all pistols are $13.

Still at The Fencing Post, the cheapest foil blade is $33, with a German point.
The same brand and quality of epee blade, with the same point, is $40.

A lame doesn't cost $6, the cheapest one is $65. So you'd have to buy about 10 blades to make up the price difference. During that time you can be sure that your $65 lame needs to be replaced, which means that the epee fencer will still be coming ahead.

Of course, this is assuming that foil guards and epee guards are the same price (or that the price difference is minimum), as well for bodycords.

[OCTAVIA]

Well, you are so right. There is someone on the board,who knows that I'm absolutely broke, and harps about money to me. He lives with his mother though so what can one expect.

When it comes to choosing your weapon, it's really up to your feelings about the weapon, I personally like the freedom of the epee because I find wearing a lame an additional difficulty, when you look at all the layers: the chest protector, the plaston, the jacket, and the lame, it's very uncomfortable; so when you fence epee, you can wear chest protector, an fie but think plastron, and a thin flexibe nylon jacket, you can at least move. I felt like a tank in the foil stuff, and then in foil you have to stay in one target.


My classes will only cost me $50 a month, with a lesson I have no problems with this arrangement, however, I am still broke.

Cheers!

[pkt]

Originally posted by downunder
point conceded.....

Done most graciously.

Thank you,
PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by Philistine


Umm... wasn't the point conceded with regard to epee's comparison to sabre, rather than to foil?

--Philistine [/B]

Exactly.
Takes a lawyer to point that out?!

PK

[pkt]

Veeco is right.

[You have to throw in that French grip bit, don't you? Hey, Sabreurs use some kind of 'French' grip too, don't we? Is the correct spelling for the feminin for sabreur, SABREURE? Or what do they use in France?]

Hence my comparison is only with ADDITONAL equipment that a sabreur requires cf an epeeist. As the economist are so fond of saying. "Holding everything else equal." or something to that effect. Or as the accountants would say: Variance analysis.

Then we can look at the cost of running a sabre tourney versus an epee tourney:
for sabre tounrey,
1. you don't need to rent or borrow the metallic pistes, hence
2. one just need to buy the bare minimum amount of duct tape or gaffer tapes to mark off the pistes,
3. no need to use the anchor system that's req'ed for the pistes...
4. Easier, quicker clean-up.
5. Shorter gym rental time.
6. So much hot air that one can turn down the heat...[I throw this one in gratis. But I must say, with the advent of electric sabre there's a lot LESS arguing.]

Did I leave out anything?

PK

[downunder]

Originally posted by canthidefromme
I'll buy your epee if you buy my foil lame.

on the prices we get in AUS there wouldn't be that much of a difference:

FIE epee vs a uhlmann foil lame... lame wouldn't be more than 30-40 $a more

[D'Artagnan1673]

Veeco,

I did mention in my post that I was comparing apples to oranges.

Snip

It seems that FIE foils are $20 - $30 cheaper than epees. On the other hand, foilists must have a lame. None the less I find epee more expensive because I think that epeeists tend to buy FIE gear more than exclusive foilists. I get this idea from observing the gear at epee events.

In that paragraph I admitted that FIE foils are cheaper than FIE epee but that cost drawback is offset by the lame'. As I said, it is my opinion that FIE gear is more necessary in epee than in foil Your story of Smirnov does have bearing to what can happen, but I understand Smirnov died from a wound to the mask before the FIE changed from testing the mask for 8k(?) to 12k.



A lame doesn't cost $6, the cheapest one is $65. So you'd have to buy about 10 blades to make up the price difference. During that time you can be sure that your $65 lame needs to be replaced, which means that the epee fencer will still be coming ahead.

With all due respect, I must ask where did you come up with that? I did fence foil for many years and am aware of how much a lame costs.

Snip

Good Lame' = 100 - 130

I even added it to my count.