attacking in epee

[skater_fencerbo]

what is a good attack drill for epee, my coach recently told me to lay down the foil and get more involved in epee, and i wasnt a very good attacker in foil so i need a little help

[Dragonfly]

I switched from foil to epee also, it's true you have to really fight to get right of way in foil, to me, it is a little energy taking, epee is very different. Just when I started to get better at it, as in breakthroughs, I have to overcome another obstacle. Oh well.

Here goes from my standpoint in epee, I attack more frequently, that's one thing and it comes from the spirit of que se ra, se ra, what will be will be. You see an opening, your timing is right and you go for it; you can see if your opponent will double touch you back or not, can you afford the risk or not? if yes you dive in, if not, you wait for a better opening or his attack then you either parry riposte or go for the double touch.

Good luck wait for more responses, and enjoy your epee.

also I forgot; a drill I learned from a fellow fencer:
Fencer A on the command hits: hand to chest to knee- to toe and fleches, do all of the targets 1,2,3, fast,and turn around, then your friend does the same thing, and back and forth until you both attack all the basic areas in one movement

[broncofencer]

You will learn to attack in epee without right of way to protect you the sit back and wait doesn't work well. which is not to say fire up the old barbarian berzerker attack. you just have to be more offensive minded in order to get single touches on a regular basis. otherwise be prepared to lose a lot 5-4 because your opponent got a single touch and the rest were doubles.

As for a drill I suggest just fence and only worry about how many touches you score if you are only scoring a few or have a lot of doubles attack more.

A good drill fro tip control is to bounce a tennis ball off a wall let it hit the floor and hit it after the first bounce on the floor start with a simple thrust then work through more advanced techniques when that becomes easy go to a racketball. I know a fencer who does this drill with a stinking super bouncy ball he got out of a quarter machine.

[frenzl]

I have to ask this question i'm just a dumb foil guy and dn't know what a "double" touch is. Can you help me out?

[oiuyt]

double touch- both lights are on, both fencers score.

Unlike what the previous posters have said, attacking is at less of a premium in epee than in foil. Attacking exposes a weakness in your position that the counterattacker can take advantage of. While you need to be able to attack to keep your opponent honest, to take advantage of lapses that s/he might make, and for when trailing, you can get away with considerably more time NOT attacking in epee than in either of the other two weapons. This is even more true at lower levels when you can sit back and wait for your opponent to do something stupid and then just punish the mistake.

Good attacking drills.... Have a partner expose various wrist targets and hit them. As you get better have the openings get smaller and smaller until it's more the suggestion of a particular target rather than a true opening. Then add another step. Hit wrist, take 6, hit with opposition to the chest. Maybe add a beat before the whole sequence. Then have your partner (after getting hit in opposition) take a step out, replacing his/her tip near your bell. Follow the sequence above with a take and hit in opposition 8 (ie the full sequence is beat, pick wrist, take 6, hit chest, partner steps out, replacing tip, take 8, hit leg or hip).

Do drills where you attack and then immediately remise. Or remise off of a parry that is released (ie a foil style parry where your partner doesn't maintain contact with your blade). Or hit wrist and then immediately drop a replacement to knee. Or go for wrist, if parried, drop to knee.

Add in lots of variations. Have your partner give realistic cues and reactions. If your partner gives an opening by dropping his/her arm from the elbow 4-6 inches, that's not realistic. If you see it in a bout it's probably an intentional invitation not a true opening. Once you have the mechanics of various combinations similar to those above, have your partner start adding surprises. Examples could include:
When you beat your opponent breaks the distance open, maintaining a stable posture. You should immediately abort your attack.
As you recover after your attack has finished your partner attacks. You should parry and riposte.
Your partner should give various looks lead into the action. Let's say that your drill starts with a beat in 4. Rather than always being in a standard 6 guard position, your partner should be more mobile, sometimes in absence of blade, etc. When s/he presents the blade into a beatable position and the rest of the variables (distance, where in the steps you each are, your mental state, etc.) are correct you trigger. If anything isn't there, you wait for the next opportunity.

Try out lots of different things. Figure out what actions you like and can execute well. Then go try them on strip.

The obvious resource that you SHOULD be asking this question of is your coach. See what drills s/he wants you to be doing.

-B :)

[veeco]

It kind of depends on what type of fencer you are or you'd like to be. Do you want to fence with absence of blade or with strong takes?

If absence of blade try to work on change beats, disengages, ceding parries. Work on angulated attacks as these are not too common in foil. Work on toe touches.

If strong takes try to work on always taking the blade with opposition. Work on 8 binds, 4 binds and 6 binds. Learn to go for an advanced target first and finish to the body if you miss.

The most important notion to have in epee is that an attack will not succeed if it's not fully commited. It can be hard for foil fencers to do this, as in foil an attack doesn't need to be fully commited, you can hold back a little since you have right of way to protect you.

[Gav]

The perception that Epee is somehow 'passive' or 'slow' is somewhat incorrect [or anachronistic?].

You have to understand that Epee is fast and it is aggressive. Point control is important [like everyone says] but that distance control and footwork are just as, if not more, useful to you as an Epeeist.

As has been noted elsewhere in this thread, you won't get far without committing to your attacks. Also I wouldn't recommend locking your arm [keep it 98% straight) so that if you have to improvise quickly you can. There is no ROW to protect you and Epeeists love to take advantage of newly converted foilists expectation regarding ROW - well I do anyway. Don't point your tip at the ceiling like some foilists do.

Right on to some practical drill advice. Practice with a partner where possible. Don't worry too much about 'style' to start with - just try using the Epee - whatever works for you will come to the fore as you practice.

Typical drills that I currently do are -

• footwork [ok - when I can be bothered]. Lunges, stepping, ballestra's etc
• Simple Bladework. Fencer and coach start at close distance. Coach make contact with the blade and then removes it [still maintaining a threat] fencer straightens steps in to chest. Then the same action this time with derobement. The fencer should be aiming to be relaxed throughout.
• Blade-in-opposition. Coach presents the opening fancer takes the blade and pushes through to target.
• Detachment. Coach attempts to take the blade, fencer avoids, and attacks finishing attack in opposition.
• Engagement. From Epee distance Fencer makes contact on the blade and pushes through to target, finishing in opposition.
• Distance. From outside distance coach advances into distance with an attempt to take the blade - fencer detaches and fleches [or lunges depending] to target.

I've tried to keep the wording as user friendly as possible. All of the above [except were noted] could be done at step or lunge distance, and on the move or not [typically while you are geting your eye in].

These are just examples and are what I work on with my coach that I can currently remember.

Most modern Epee is more 'Foil-like' than so-called classical Epee but don't let that deceive you - Epeeists have no regard to ROW.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Both Ouiyt and Vecco have articulated well and show their level of expertise.

Not that I am an upper echelon epeeist, but I have a few additional points to make.

Avoid being a static fencer. Do not always fence with your blade in six, nor always in absence of the blade. Mix up your footwork and avoid risky shots. Do not always defend, attack as well to keep your opponent wondering what you will do next. Try to keep the ball in your court. Make him react to you, do not let him take command of the bout. As they said, your primary target is going to be the wrist/forearm, or toe. Practice going to the body after your touch to the primary target. In this way, if you by chance miss the primary you have a chance of getting the touch on the secondary. Try to avoid attacking with a bent arm as that exposes far too much target for a good defensive epeeist. Low level epeeists will do this all the time, but you will know it when you are fencing a good epeeist.

As Ouiyt said, an obvious drop in guard or forward extension of the knee are most likey not opportunities to hit your opponent; rather your opponent hopes you think that so that he can react off your attack.

Also, consider that epee distance and timing varries from that of foil. This is something that you will learn in time as you become accustomed to epee fencing. Consider working your opponent into a routine or rhythm with your footwork. Then, when he's caught on to your pattern, make a sudden change. This may throw him off balance and allow for an easy touch. Make sure that you avoid broadcasting an attack unless you are using second intention. As epee has no right of way to protect a weak attack, always attack when you are at your strongest. Only you and your coach can tell you what moves are best for your fencing style and preference.

Most importantly, observe the fencers you may bout against at tournaments and note their strengths and weaknesses. Avoid going into a bout without any type of gameplan.

Good luck and have fun.

***edit*** Sorry your not including you too Gav, you posted while I was writing mine ***

[oiuyt]

Mmmmm, seeing Gav's post helped highlight to me a possible misinterpretation of my post. I'm not advocating passivity. I fence and try to teach a highly agressive counterattack game. Push your opponent into making mistakes and make them pay for any mistakes which they make. As mentioned, at a lower level, epee can be fenced successfully merely by waiting for such opportunities. At levels beyond this the mistakes are generally created.

Epee is all about appropriately timed opportunism. Pick off those shots that were accidently given to you. Create the pressure that causes such accidents to happen.

-B :)

[Dragonfly]

This tread is very good, I'm going to jot down some of the responses for the future. I forgot about wrist -to 6 then chest, which is a different drill, it works on a different set of reflexes.[anticipating the response???] In beginning epee we just go from one target to another, to 'drill' in the idea that in epee, you seldom return to the engarde position if you miss your initial target and your arm is still out there you find another target as quickly as possible. Thanks also to Gav for jumping in, he's a terrific poster in the Leon Paul board. Also on the double light thing, it does become part of the strategy and part of the fun in epee. I notced what our poster mentioned about those 5-4 bouts; during our qualifiers I did go 5-4 [against], in three bouts, it was very frustrating for me, I felt I had the ability, but I went up against more experience epeeists, however due to the points and other victories I was able to qualify for Division III [still unclassified]. Had I been less aggressive in the last 40 seconds of those bouts, in other words continued to play the strategy game I could have had a better chance to find the one lighter that I needed for the victory.

3 Cheers for Epee

[oiuyt]

Originally posted by Dragonfly
This tread is very good, I'm going to jot down some of the responses for the future. I forgot about wrist -to 6 then chest, which is a different drill, it works on a different set of reflexes.[anticipating the response???] In beginning epee we just go from one target to another, to 'drill' in the idea that in epee, you seldom return to the engarde position if you miss your initial target and your arm is still out there you find another target as quickly as possible.

I hope this isn't a reference to what I suggested. I would NOT suggest returning to guard in the middle of sequence as I gave it. The take 6, hit with opposition to chest is a continuation of the attack, NOT a new assault.

-B :)

[Gav]

Oiuyt - I wasn't referring to your post. I was actually referring to the thread starter - didn't mean to come across that way.

...my coach recently told me to lay down the foil and get more involved in epee, and i wasnt a very good attacker in foil so i need a little help

The implication being, "You are too rubbish at attacking to be of use in Foil - do Epee instead..."

You are of course correct that Epee is "appopriately timed opportunism" - couldn't have put it much better myself.

[Dragonfly]

I yield the floor, and concur, going into the guard position would be sort of silly, it seems to continue is the name of the game in epee. I really glad I started with it, I never considered it before for some reason, I think I found the weapon too heavy at one time, but now it seems a very small point.

En garde!

[Drew42]

A good epeeist(?) is like a world class tennis player. They try to avoid making mistakes while at the same time waiting for their opponent to make a mistake they can take advantage of. Of course, really, really good epeeists also try to encourage their opponents to make that mistake by enticing a bad attack or other such. And really, really, really good epeeists know their opponenets are doing this to them and therefore . . . . physical chess, I love this sport!!!!

[D'Artagnan1673]

Drew,

Your post smacks of that scene from the Princess Bride where the guy is talking about the poison. None the less, your post has substance.