University Games

[veeco]

So far, China and Korea are owning the fencing floor. Russia and Ukraine aren't doing too bad either.

See http://www.universiade-daegu.org for the main page and http://www.universiade-daegu.org/eng...asp?game_cd=FE for fencing information and results.

Does anyone know why didn't the US send any of its fencers?

[oiuyt]

Does anyone know why didn't the US send any of its fencers?

No $$ in the budget. It was even brought up at the BoD meeting what if the fencers were willing to pay their own way. Stacey Johnson mentioned that this had been decided against as an option because the USFA would still have incurred fairly high support staff costs that could not be off-loaded to the fencers and that could not possibly be omitted. The USFA just decided that financially it wasn't doable.

-B :)

[Inquartata]

Ah, where o where have those hundreds of thousands of dollars from the USOC gone?

[oiuyt]

Into the other programs the USFA runs... and into supporting the R and F. :)

-B :)

[a517dogg]

Originally posted by oiuyt
Into the other programs the USFA runs... and into supporting the R and F.

-B

I thought they went into giving the 'elite' fencers brand-new cars and penthouses in New York.

[Dragonfly]

Okay, I've been practicing saying the word Elite, it doesn't sound so bad now, in fact it's starting to have a nice ring to it.

While this may sound really nuts; why doesn't usfa hire a few good fund raisers? they need maybe 3 in an annual fund office; and 2 in major gifts; start with 3 volunteers and 2 paid staff; while it may be difficult now with economic downturn, but money could be raised, and I peeked at the schedule veeco provided us, it was really nice of you, I saw some familiar names and it was a real uplifter. Go Italy!

[nahouw]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Ah, where o where have those hundreds of thousands of dollars from the USOC gone?

The USOC chose not to fund the World University Games, so the USFA does not have any money from the USOC for this.

The requirements of the World University Games as far as staff would be too expensive even if a handful fencers chose to pay there own way -- even if each fencer who was interested in going agreed to pay for staff costs, they would be looking at paying at least 1, and most probably 2 people's airfare, hotel and meals for the duration -- fencer's are burdened enough with costs for travelling to competitions, that I think that most would decline the option to compete considering that under this arrangement that you would have to pay either 2X or 3X your cost. The USFA does fund staff to the Junior Pan Am Games (it is a good developmental experience), and only 1 fencer in each weapon category can go self-funded -- so that is a max of 12 fencers, and a staff of at least 4.

As far as to fundraising, that is not an easy endeavor that you think it is. The best, most efficient large organizations have at least 10% of money raised going to administrative costs for the support people to do the fund raising (and, there are very few in this best category -- the median is at about 30%; and, if you are raisng that large sum of money, you have a very large group of fundraisers). Considering that many of these organizations raise money for diseases, which many people are interested in giving to, and very many high profile people with big bucks will give to, what makes you think that these same people will give to fencing? There is no altruistic element to give to fencing. Already on the USFA membership application there is a line item for you to give money for fund raising. How many people of the 15,000 membership do you think give money each year? Even if each and every of the 15,000 members give just only $10, that is only $150,000 funds raised. Even if the USFA hired 2 people, and had 3 volunteers to support this effort, these funds would be exhausted by salary, benefits, employer share of taxes, telephone expenses, marketing materials expenses, events expenses, etc...and how much additional would be raised? It is not a positive cash flow situation, which is why the USFA doesn't pursue this.

The USFA has been recently fortunate enough to receive some bequeaths. The USFA is also smart about the money that they have received, and have created programs in which interest from this principal will be awarded to fencers, rather than just spending it.

[Inquartata]

Well, that "too expensive" riff could easily be applied to every World Cup event, and indeed to any tournaments abroad. Why was THIS one especially disfavored? That's what I would like to know...

[JEC]

Probably because it does not earn FIE points for rankings.

[rory]

Probably because it does not earn FIE points for rankings.

Neither do the Olympics.

The Universiade is an extremely strong competition (about the same level as a Senior Worlds or thereabouts), and in the vast majority of countries is seenas second only to the Olympics in importance.

[Peach]

However, the University Games do not have any particular reputation in the United States, and since the USFA gets some funding and some of its charge from the US Olympic Committee, it seems to me that would influence choices.

[penguin]

The Olympics do count for FIE ranking points - they are the equivalent of the World Championships, in an Olympic year (ie points earned in the Olmypics replace World Champs points from the previous year).

Univeriade is a nice extra, but it is not on a par with the World Champs, especially given the timing this year, with many of the best athletes who might otherwise attend not competing, becuase preparation for the World Champs is more important.

In many (most?) European countries, the fencers don't train between the Euro Champs and the Universiade (or not more than once or twice in the week prior to the Universiade). The summer break is seen as being more important. Of course, they fence tooth and nail on the strip, but for many, it is not important enough to prepare for.

[Zelda]

Australia doesnt really send people to Uni Games either. I think we sent someone to the one in China (I know my Dad went to the closing ceremony) but there aint any aussies fencing in this one....whats funny is there is a glitch on the site and the Austrian male fencers have become honoury (spelling?) aussies!

[Boo Boo]

Out of interest - since some great descriptions of what the USFA does and doesn't fund in relation to the WSGs have been written - what funding does the USFA give fencers/coaches/officials to attend foreign World Cups? Also what sort of funding does it give "elite" fencers to train (if that is known - I assume that some USFA elite fencers get money to help with training)? And does the USFA give any awards/bonuses to fencers getting good world cup/championship finishes.

Just curious how the USFA does things compared with the UK.

I was surprised that the US didn't send any fencers in the WSG - must have had some good medals hopes there. Am very surprised that the WSG is seen as less of an opportunity than the Pan-American Games: rather sad.

Boo

[oiuyt]

Well, that "too expensive" riff could easily be applied to every World Cup event

The USFA doesn't send support staff to world cups. For world cups the fencer is on his/her own. If more than 4 US fencers are going the USFA puts up the money for the required referee to go, but there's no support staff. It was decided that for the University Games a support staff was a requirement (for all I know this is a University Games requirement). These aren't comparable situations.

Boo Boo- The USFA will pay for the referee in the case there are enough Americans going to require one. Travel costs and entry fees are the responsibility of the fencer in question. Each national weapon coach also designates certain world cups as being particularly significant, there may be additional support available for these events, I'm not certain. There are monetary support awards for high placement in world championships. I don't believe that there are regular training stipends or anything similar.

How does the UK do things?

-B :)

[sabreman]

Oiuyt is right on the money regarding wc funding. From what I can remember a wc entry fee was something like $20.00 but this was back in the 1990s.

[Boo Boo]

World Cup entry fees are still about $20/20 Euros (except for Grand Prix which are $60/60 Euros).

Thanks Oiuyt, very interesting. So who funds the coaches that travel with the US team (fencers?)?

In the UK, there are a few (maybe 3 or 6 - not sure - in total) fencers who receive funding. This money has to be used towards competition expenses (travel, accomodation and subsistence etc.) and training and is in the region of about £3000 per person I believe (although it may be less or a little bit more). The funding is very much dependent on performance and continual improvement (very tough to get and difficult to keep hold of).

The are also bonuses/awards for getting good placings in World Cups (a few hundred pounds for a L16 , for example).

For World Cups, coaches are not funded (which is why we don't tend to take them). Neither are referees: if a team of more than four fencers go, the fencers split the cost of the referee between them.

There are some exceptions... for example, our men's foil team has been considered "promising", so they do get some funding (and a funded coach) to go to world cups. Don't know the details though.

Our World Championship team is fully funded: the whole team, weapons coaches and officials are being funded to Havana. However, we are not sending a full team (only those individuals who have qualified - a World Cup L16 and a L32 - and "promising" teams).

But funding is a bit of a "grey area" here.

Boo

[oiuyt]

Originally posted by Boo Boo
Thanks Oiuyt, very interesting. So who funds the coaches that travel with the US team (fencers?)?

Coach that travels with the US team?

As mentioned in my previous post, it's possible that for the designated cups (or some of them anyway) there is additional support (such as a coach, trainers, whatever). I don't know that there is, but it's possible. For non-designated cups I'm fairly certain that we don't send a coach. I suppose the fencers could bring one, I don't know whether or not this is done. Certainly the couple of friends of mine that have started doing a few world cups in the past year or two don't have a coach with them when they travel.

Sounds like we have fairly similar structures set up (except that the US pays for international referees). I don't know that there's any award for finishes in the world cup events, but there definately are for World Championships. The impression that I got was that they could be more than just a few hundred dollars, but I also hadn't heard of awards being given for results below the medal rounds. Again, I'm not real clear on details, so what I've said may or may not be fully true.

-B :)

[Boo Boo]

Yes, normally when I see the women's foil team, there is at least one coach travelling with them (Paris, Havana, Leipzig... can't remember if they had a coach with them at other competitions or not). In Havana there even appeard to be a qualified Physio with the team (although that could have been a coach/parent who happened to be a physio too). Maybe the fencers split the cost of a coach between them. Certainly spliting the cost of a coach is more affordable if you don't have to split the cost of a referee as well.

The awards here may be higher for medals, I am not sure. I think that, when the awards scheme was set up, medals at senior were not a hugely realistic goal: so the BFA encouraged achievement of L16s/L8s...

Seems as though funding is not as different as I had thought. However, from what I here, Colleges/Universities can be a very good source of funding in the US - that is not the case here :-(.

Boo

[afc fencer]

There are many ways an elite fencer can get funds from the usfa.
If you compete in a senior A comp and compete in the team competion as well you will recive upto $100 for staying the extra day, this covers the cost of food and room in europe.

For the senior, junior, and cadet world champs if you have a certin number of international points the usfa will pay up to 100% of your air fare.

There is a traning grant program for our top fencers.

If a fencer does well in designated world cups and world champs he or she will also get money from the usfa.
Designated Junior “A”# &
World Championships
Cadet World
Championships
1 $1,880 $ 1,000
2 $1,580 $ 600
3-4 $1,350 $ 500
5-8 $1,125 $ 400
9-16 $ 600 $ 250
17-32 $ 300

They even give money for cadet and y-14 nacs.

All of the info on funding can be found in chapter 5 of the usfa athlees handbook.