Carl and those interested in Middle Eastern technique,
I had thought I had responded to this post, but found I had=20
not. Please excuse me for not replying earlier.
Yes, the assumed "holy grail" of information is expected to=20
exist by many people in the ancient libraries in Cairo and in the=20
Middle East in the form of period manuscripts and instructional=20
manuals. There must be a remarkable amount of evidence because=20
there has already been one modern book written on the subject of=20
archery entitled Saracen Archery based on findings in a group of=20
various manuscripts all cited therin. The Mamluk military system=20
was very literate especially since (as I understand it) the later=20
Muslim faith that came about made it a very important thing to be=20
literate. The Ottoman military system that came later made=20
extensive educational advancement and literacy improvements and=20
military structure organizational improvements on Mamluk heels and=20
assumedly using much of the prior Mamluk educational material.=20=20
That's what I base my theory on along with the same suspisions I=20
have read of much more learned men who were professionals in that=20
field. Accessing them can be a very difficult problem I'm sure as=20
they are likely considered very valuable, how many people do you=20
think can get to examine documents from 500 to 800 years ago?=20
There are several modern treatments that come to mind though that=20
are findable if you look deep enough, although of varying value.=20=20
David Nichole has written two articles on Mamluk manuals in the=20
Osprey military magazine of which I have one and it does not really=20
mention the "technique" of anything really, just some warrior's=20
general information, which is great, but....nonspecific. There=20
exists an article which I have scanned and reprinted on Mamluk=20
military technique that is very interesting and just what I was=20
looking for that even mentions several sword excercises in=20
specific...it's nothing short of increadible, I'm probably breaking=20
some sort of copyright law, but I hope not, it's at the Jalid_bey2=20
username on the Webshots page listed below in my signature, by David=20
Ayalon titled The Training of the Mamluk Faris. It's fuzzy, but=20
it's readable if you zoom in to the "largest" setting. It even=20
mentions towards the end of the more advanced excercises involving=20
weilding two swords at once. I really wish he had done more=20
articles along those lines. It's a good "teaser" of how they=20
actually learned. There is also a book by Zablocki...Ciecia=20
Prawdziwa Szabla...that has Polish treatise of using the sabre of=20
it's more historical design. Rick Orli has done a=20
translation/evaluation article that is also excellent and can be=20
seen at
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/Poli...tillery.htm=20
dealing specifically with that work. (Rick is also an excellent=20
person by the way whom I occasionally corespond with, so he's very=20
reachable.)(Hell, he's probably on this list anyway, though I=20
haven't looked.) Lastly there are several modern manuals on the use=20
of sabre, to be found in the Naval manual (whose link is deceased)=20
of about the mid 1800's I think, an early 1900's US sabre manual,=20
the Burton Cold Steel manual and a civil war manual as well. They=20
are all very similar, but I definitely prefer the Burton book by=20
far. Take a look at the links at the bottom of this page:=20
http://ahfaa.org/saber.htm and you'll see several sources I mention=20
and a few more. Lastly I suspect there is one book that might have=20
something in it, but I'm a bit leary of it's content. It's supposed=20
to be a facsimilie and translation/transcription and commentary=20
entitled #13. *Munyatu'l-ghuzat, 14th Century Mamluk-Kiptchak=20
Military Treatise by Kurtulu=FE =D6ztop=E7u (iv+223 pages, 1989)
as part=20
of a large series of manuscript evaluations and can be found here:=20
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Busi...teratures.html but=20
if you inquire they will send you an overseas adress since it is no=20
longer being handled by the origional person, it does seem to be=20
origionally something belivable, so i might one day (when i am=20
reemployed) purchace. Lastly there is at least one living person=20
who has learned thru his relative who was taught by some of the last=20
Hungarian Hussars the school of Sabre useage. He's a very=20
respectable person, a pleasure to corespond with and was at one time=20
on the list of teahers for the 2002 wmaw symposium list, but for=20
whatever reason didn't wind up teaching there...his name is Russ=20
Mitchell, I might be misspelling it. There are also a few others=20
who have schools that teach from various later fence oriented=20
masters whose names escape me, but learned what was passed down from=20
the 18th and 19th centuries as boradsword and heavy sabre school of=20
various nationalities.=20=20
As for Yahoo groups, there is a group at=20
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Broadsword_Heavy_Sabre approaching the=20
classical fence styles with the weapon and their initiative to get=20
blades reproduced for use in training and their classical fence,=20
there are many very helpful people there, very educated and=20
informative. There is my yahoo group that I started not knowing=20
about the one I just mentioned, it is based on trying to get that=20
same blade into production and into the use for reenactors...it's:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/curvedbladeproject . There are two=20
blade merchants PopinJ and Alchem that might be able to provide=20
suitable fence blades and I currently am awaiting an Alchem blade's=20
arrival. The SCA's "sidesword" experimental studies are meant to=20
more "realistically" reproduce precussive technique and I think=20
might be able to reproduce to an extent the fencing of the late=20
victorian era more realistically than their/our usuall rapier fence=20
recreation. It's intent is to recreate earlier period=20
fencing/dueling/combat such as done with the sidesword of the 1500's=20
and 1600's using certain modern rapier blade interpretations. It=20
seems to me that the venue screams to be played with in the Middle=20
Eastern saber use styles as we can envision them based on the above=20
conglomeration of information.=20=20
There exist several groups such as the "Dark Horde" in the SCA,=20
the "Red Kaganate" (that has a very extensive armour site by the=20
way), and i'm sure several others. Norm at the Red Kaganate has put=20
togehter lots of info on a variety of topics from a Turco-mongolian=20
point of view and can be seen at:
http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/=20
where you will find links to the armour site (another person whom I=20
find to be fantastically helpful and friendly).=20
As one final note, there is a current living tradition that I have=20
been trying to get more information on called Gatka. It is a Sikh=20
Indian martial tradition dating back as I understand it to the=20
1700's involving many weapons including the Tulwar, a saber bladed=20
weapon whose techinque could easily be used with a "shamshir"=20
or "kilij" or "karabella" or similar sabre weapon. I have=20
attempted to contact 2 people who have sites on the subject, but=20
have been totally unsuccessful. There are about 20 or 30 pictures=20
on webshots mentioned below, not on my pages, but if you search for=20
the word "gatka" you will find them. There is a book on Gatka that=20
was made that I cannot find. And there have been Gatka "gatherings"=20
overseas and it is still being taught, probably in more of a sport=20
or performance viewpoint, but I'm expecting strongly based in=20
realistic martial techniques.=20=20=20=20
Well, I appologize to those who have read this and not found what=20
they are looking for, and anyone wanting to send me information=20
please do so to my yahoo adress. I'm trying really hard to keep it=20
all and spread the sourcework knowledge. One day I hope we Middle=20
Easten entheusiasts have our own i.33's, Talhoffer's, Marozzo's and=20
Agripa's, but until that day I search, compile and hope.=20=20
Jalid
p.s, you might also check from time to time the Islamic forum on=20
Swordforum.com, from time to time something pops up, but so far it=20
has been non-conclusive and hasn't delivered much either. of course=20
it's an informative gathering on a variety of topics in the matter.=20=20
and the moderator Manoucher Mushtag (sp?) has recently put up a=20
multipart series on his trip to the Middle East and the smiths and=20
practicioners that are still there.
p.p.s. update: there is also another set of mamluk manuals being=20
worked on by the st petersberg branch of the institute of oriental=20
studies in the Russian academy of sciences which also contains a=20
future release of a mamluk training manual . Here is a directly=20
quoted email from the project director:
. Dear colleague, Because of the great amount of the new and very=20
interesting material connected with the MS you are interested in the=20
project in general was modified. Now it will contain the book in=20
hard cover and DVD with the video film and MS color copy. We hope to=20
start shooting the film in Cairo in the end of February, 2003. Best=20
regards, Prof. Dr. Efim A. Rezvan -------------------- Editor-in-
Chief, Manuscripta Orientalia, International Journal for Oriental=20
MSS Research --------------------- Deputy Director, St. Petersburg=20
Branch of the Institute of Oriental Studies, Russian Academy of=20
Sciences .=20=20
this release he further wrote in another email was due late 2003=20
and should have a price point of about $100. I'm anxiously
awaiting=20
the release.
just let me know if anyone finds out anything different or more=20
in depth please...pretty please...and thank you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier b=
lunts and leather gorgets.
http://www.woodenswords.com
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 
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