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Old 10-24-2002, 05:33 PM   #1
stuydaze
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[CFML] Fencing footware & injury

My main concern on my footwork posting was shock absorbtion,
whose importance is more obvious in simpler footwork, like
advances, retreats and lunges, balaestras, and so forth. It is still
an issue with regard to pivoting actions, but I'll get back to those
in a minute. It doesn't matter whether your style is medieval,
rennaisance or Olympic, or even European at all. As long as
you're dealing with moving your weight with your legs, this will be
some sort of an issue.

I'll break my thinking down, step by step:

The Advance -- a simple 1/2 step. This sort of step differs
considerably from a normal walking step. In an ordinary step
from one foot to the other, the center of gravity is higher, and the
step is accomplished by shifting weight from one side of the
body to the other. in a fencer's advance, the center of gravity is
lower, and the body is pushed forward by one leg. Many styles of
fencing advocate a lower stance with the knees bent. When done
rapidly, it exerts quite a bit of force on the propelling leg.



The Retreat is pretty much the same, just going the other way.

The Lunge--Whether you do it as a big advance-step forward, as
in earlier period combat, or as the later lunge proper, you're
accellerating your body's mass from one foot to the other. That
acceleration can get quite intense, for both legs. Assuming a
nearly-worst case scenario (the full, long, classical lunge).your
body weight is accellerated three or more feet, impelled by all the
force the rear leg can muster, to be stopped suddenly by the heel
contacting the earth. Decelleration stress occurs primarily in the
tendons & muscles of the front of the knee. I've read that a good
lunge can generate up to 1000 pounds of force where ground
contact is made. The rear leg faces less impact-shock, but still
gets an awful lot of stress from having to suddenly accelerate the
body mass forward. And I can add from personal experience,
that I've torn the sole partially off a fairly new tennis court-shoe on
the rear leg. You can lessen the stress to the front leg a bit by
lunging with proper form , ie: keeping the body low throughout
the lunge, the front heel just skimming the ground, the knee
finishing over the instep. It becomes the worst-case scenario
when the lunge is a "flying" lunge--the fencer lifts his front leg (or
worse, his body) to lunge & even worse by landing short, with
knee way over the toe. There's no way a knee can take these
stresses for very long.

When we start talking about twisting moves like passes,
inquartatas, intagliatas, volts and so forth, we certainly have to
deal with torsional stresses on the knees, but imact stresses
are still occurring on the other foot, to varying degrees. It's harder
for me to pin these down, because there are more variables.
Whether you're facing stresses caused by pushing-off and
landing, or twisting stresses depend on the specific technique
and also the way it's applied.

A straight pass on an attack forward (bringing the rear leg past
the front one) is likely to produce more stress on the foot you
land on, because of the acceleration and the commitment of the
body forward in the attack.

A full inquartata (spinning on the front leg towards your inside,
and sweeping the rear leg around) as a counter-action is likely to
primarily crank the knee of the pivot-leg, because you need to
turn the body out of the way, but not shift back quite so much.
Super-grippy sport shoes on a wood floor are going to be lethal
(but so would be a boot with heels in soft ground).

The same inquartata, but done more defensively by throwing the
body more off-line, might produce less twisting-stress on the
front leg, because the weight is pushed off of it earlier, and
again, it's the leg that the weight lands on that takes the brunt.

The point I was trying to make was that all of these stresses take
their toll on the body. I have learned this from experience. It
doesn't happen all at once, but slowly & gradually, and by the
time there are manifested symptoms, you're already in trouble.
and it can take as long or longer to recover.

I hadn't even thought that there was one solution, and as has
been pointed out, different styles of movement require different
solutions. This isn't news. Basketball shoes have more & higher
cushioning for jumping. boxing shoes have soft soles for
working on taut canvas, but high tops to support ankle stress
(from twisting into the punches). And there are even special
"Martial Arts Sneakers" designed for kickers who pivot on the
balls of their feet. But all of bits of equipment will (at least in
theory) lessen the hazards of orthopedic injuries.

With regard to the effect on form, why hobble yourself?
Beginners should learn with the fewest obstacles. Absorbing
little habits to compensate for weird traction & terrain problems
can become big bad habits later on down the road. Years ago I
used to do quite a bit of fencing in period garb. My footwear of
choice were heavy Fry boots. I developed a number of odd habits
that were built around being able to slide on the soles & dig in
my heels that were really counter productive, because those
habits were only applicable in one envirionment. After having had
to relearn the basics, I could apply the correct technique pretty
much anyplace.

For a more advanced fencer who fences alot, there's still the
orthopedics to consider.
-----------------
Antoine, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on a few points:
firstly, While the lunge, any lunge, is a long advance, it is more
than just a step. The advantage of the lunge is that it delivers the
point from a distance of two steps in the time of one step. So
right there, acceleration is implied. Further, the point needs to be
delivered with enough force to penetrate meaningfully, ideally,
while keeping the arm relaxed. I have the illustrations of Capo
Ferro in mind:Two combatants, one hitting the other in a long
lunge, his rapier point extending out of the opponent's back or
head by several inches. To go through the torso like that (bones
& tensing muscle) reqires some force, to go through the head,
which has less mass, would, I surmise, require acceleration as
well.
In any case, there's no advantage in a lunge if they see it coming.

I am equally confused by your statement regarding historical
accuracy & equipment. Some equipment is important to form,
some isn't. Weapons are pretty important. It's hard to understand
saber if you're trying to do it with a foil, and for rapier, you really
need a rapier. But I'll take my modern fencing mask over the
leather eye-masks that were all the eye protection that they had
in the rennaisance. In fact, I'll take it over any 19th century mask
as well. Some period equipment can actually hinder one's
education. A shirt or doublet with big, loose sleeves is great for
parrying & entangling an incoming blow, but it can mask the
importance of learning how to parry that same attack, until the
time comes when you need those sleeves & don't have 'em.

Some of my early fencing instructors dated back to the time
when fencing shoes were leather with doe-skin soles. Nobody
missed them when more modern soles came around. Period
equipment was the best that they had at the time, but that doesn't
mean it was the best for the activity however. I can say the same
about boxing gloves, wrestling mats & ear protection, and so
forth. The distinction here is regarding safty equipment. I don't
think that they could have improved much on weapons however.
--------------------

Stephen: Inserts are a very good idea, sometimes even in
sneakers.

Most of the sneakers I've fenced in didn't really have that much
more traction than my boots, it was just that the traction was
more consistent on all surfaces. It's the consistency that leads to
reliable technique, in my experience. I've never had a problem
with twisting techniques in sneakers, even gum soles, which are
supposed to be the stickiest. There's a lot more traction when
they're brand new, but after a couple of weeks they become quite
comparable to old leather boot soles. The shoes with the least
traction, by the way, seem to be "fencing shoes." Go figgure.

--------------------



Well, I've run on far too long, but thanks for for sticking with me.
I just hope i haven't....put my foot in it.

Cheers,
J.

PS: Did Paul McDonald really have his sneakers resoled in
leather?



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Old 10-25-2002, 09:42 AM   #2
flechyr@interaccess.com
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Re: [CFML] Fencing footware & injury

I have studied several, and have been involved in serveral cutting
tests and experiments. It takes an incredibly SMALL amount of force to
penetrate the body with a "Sharp" - about 2 pounds of force at speed
(and not even much of that), and once the skin is penetrated there is
nearly NO resistance as the blade passes through the body - muscle or
not.

In regards to safety equipment - With the vast majority of folks I
fence, I agree - and even my modern gear doesn't feel safe enough. BUT,
there are people I trust, and I am more than willing to take on a
little more risk with them to study the period techniques as closely to
period as we can, using the best simulators of all equipment that we
can.

Adam Velez

----- Original Message -----
From: stuydaze <stuydaze@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, October 24, 2002 4:33 pm
Subject: [CFML] Fencing footware & injury

>Further, the point needs to be
> delivered with enough force to penetrate meaningfully, ideally,
> while keeping the arm relaxed. I have the illustrations of Capo
> Ferro in mind:Two combatants, one hitting the other in a long
> lunge, his rapier point extending out of the opponent's back or
> head by several inches. To go through the torso like that (bones
> &amp; tensing muscle) reqires some force, to go through the head,
> which has less mass, would, I surmise, require acceleration as
> well.




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Old 10-25-2002, 09:04 PM   #3
Antone Blair
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Re: [CFML] Fencing footware & injury

Jeff,
A few things.

On Thursday, October 24, 2002, at 02:33 PM, stuydaze wrote:

> The Lunge--Whether you do it as a big advance-step forward, as
> in earlier period combat, or as the later lunge proper, you're
> accellerating your body's mass from one foot to the other. That
> acceleration can get quite intense, for both legs. Assuming a
> nearly-worst case scenario (the full, long, classical lunge).your
> body weight is accellerated three or more feet, impelled by all the
> force the rear leg can muster, to be stopped suddenly by the heel
> contacting the earth. Decelleration stress occurs primarily in the
> tendons & muscles of the front of the knee. I've read that a good
> lunge can generate up to 1000 pounds of force where ground
> contact is made.


Though I could not tell you the force my ideal lunge would generate in
pounds, I assure you that a lunge that generates 1000 lbs of force on
impact is anything but a "good" lunge in my book. Fast and forceful,
sure, but your chance of reversing that much momentum and being able to
recover quickly is nil. That, and flinging yourself forward like that
is likely to leave you flat on your face on any less-than-ideal surface,
but more on that point later.
I think we are clearly making different assumptions about what a
lunge is, or should be.

>
> The point I was trying to make was that all of these stresses take
> their toll on the body. I have learned this from experience. It
> doesn't happen all at once, but slowly & gradually, and by the
> time there are manifested symptoms, you're already in trouble.
> and it can take as long or longer to recover.


No arguement here. I was just pointing out that impact shock isn't the
only kind of stress that can occur, so it's a complex issue and I don't
think anyone can say there is only one correct type of footwear with
specific ideal characteristics for all fencing styles. As you said:
> I hadn't even thought that there was one solution, and as has
> been pointed out, different styles of movement require different
> solutions.

(some things clipped)
> With regard to the effect on form, why hobble yourself?
> Beginners should learn with the fewest obstacles. Absorbing
> little habits to compensate for weird traction & terrain problems
> can become big bad habits later on down the road. Years ago I
> used to do quite a bit of fencing in period garb. My footwear of
> choice were heavy Fry boots. I developed a number of odd habits
> that were built around being able to slide on the soles & dig in
> my heels that were really counter productive, because those
> habits were only applicable in one envirionment. After having had
> to relearn the basics, I could apply the correct technique pretty
> much anyplace.
>

That's an interesting view. In my experience footwork that is
applicable on a smooth wooden floor creates as many bad habits as
training elsewhere; a lunge that works on dirt or gravel in
leather-soled shoes will work on wooden floors with sneakers, whereas
the opposite isn't true. Come to any ren faire and watch the
sport-fencers-turned-rapierists (whose technique is perfectly correct
for sport fencing) slip and fall all over themselves while tripping on
the slightest bump sometime, if you haven't done so in a while.
I agree that training only on one type of terrain creates bad
habits. But any terrain can cause bad habits if it's the only ground
you practice on.

> Antoine, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on a few points:
> firstly, While the lunge, any lunge, is a long advance, it is more
> than just a step. The advantage of the lunge is that it delivers the
> point from a distance of two steps in the time of one step. So
> right there, acceleration is implied. Further, the point needs to be
> delivered with enough force to penetrate meaningfully, ideally,
> while keeping the arm relaxed. I have the illustrations of Capo
> Ferro in mind:Two combatants, one hitting the other in a long
> lunge, his rapier point extending out of the opponent's back or
> head by several inches. To go through the torso like that (bones
> & tensing muscle) reqires some force, to go through the head,
> which has less mass, would, I surmise, require acceleration as
> well.

Not having skewered anyone lately I can't answer that one.
I can say that power of penetration shouldn't come from acceleration or
muscular force; it comes primarily from proper skeletal alignment.

> In any case, there's no advantage in a lunge if they see it coming.
>

Of course there is. I couldn't care less whether they see me lunging,
so long as I've put them in a position from which they cannot defend
themselves. Speed is a poor substitute for proper timing.

> I am equally confused by your statement regarding historical
> accuracy & equipment. Some equipment is important to form,
> some isn't. Weapons are pretty important. It's hard to understand
> saber if you're trying to do it with a foil, and for rapier, you really
> need a rapier. But I'll take my modern fencing mask over the
> leather eye-masks that were all the eye protection that they had
> in the rennaisance. In fact, I'll take it over any 19th century mask
> as well. Some period equipment can actually hinder one's
> education.


Sure. But safer equipment becomes a crutch for many people; with the
assumption that equipment makes you safe comes irresponsible fencing.
Self control and technique should always be your first line of
protection, with the gear there just in case.
I would question the assumption that fencing is safer because of
modern equipment; say rather that modern equipment allows fencers to
fence in more dangerous ways with less fear of the consequences.
"Better" shoes allow fencers to perform unhealthy actions longer before
the consequences become apparent.
A shoe with less cushioning immediately punishes unsafe techniques,
such as the modern uberlunge, with a bruised heel. After two or maybe
three painful lunges any fencer will correct their form so that they
perform lunges which cause less shock and softer impact. A fencer in
nice cushioned shoes will keep doing the same jarring lunge over and
over, unaware that anything is wrong because they don't feel it right
away, thus encouraging other forms of injury.
A shoe with more shock absorbtion will somewhat disburse the force
of the foot's impact, but it does little or nothing for other kinds of
strains, such as torsion from passing footwork, excessive weight being
placed on one leg, or poor body position. The 1000 pound lunge you
mention above is still placing 1000 lbs of strain on the ligaments and
tendons of the fencer's legs, regardless of the kind of shoe worn, and
is consequently still a dangerous technique. I'd rather learn not to
lunge that way from a couple of bruises on the heel than assume that
putting 1000 pounds of strain on my right legs 150 times a night is safe
so long as I have the right shoes. Which form of practice do you really
think is safer long term?

> Some of my early fencing instructors dated back to the time
> when fencing shoes were leather with doe-skin soles. Nobody
> missed them when more modern soles came around. Period
> equipment was the best that they had at the time, but that doesn't
> mean it was the best for the activity however. I can say the same
> about boxing gloves, wrestling mats & ear protection, and so
> forth. The distinction here is regarding safty equipment. I don't
> think that they could have improved much on weapons however.


I am not opposed to safer equipment per se, but footwear is not merely
safety equipment. As Stephen Hand explained earlier greater traction
can make some kinds of footwork difficult to perform correctly in
addition to causing greater potential for injury.
Remember we are discussing historical fencing, and that means
trying to learn how people DID fence, not how they WOULD have fenced if
they had X or Y. The shoes we have today did not exist 200 years ago.
Also, much of the footwork used in modern fencing has changed
significantly because of the new footwear; the kind of lunge you might
see in the next Olympics would not even be possible with shoes of the
17th century. Therefore, they must have used different footwork in the
past; ie, a style of footwork that works in historical footwear.
A modern person fencing in a historical fencing tournament COULD
use modern shoes and COULD use modern fencing footwork. However, this
would not be historically accurate, and would thus not be historical
rapier technique. Also, the person using modern footwork (which relies
on modern equipment to make it possible) is for all intents and purposes
cheating. Thus, the most logical way to prohibit inaccurate and unfair
technique is to prohibit items that make them possible.
It would probably be possible to create a full-sized practice
rapier from space-age plastics which would weigh less than half a pound;
my movements would be faster, my arm would not suffer fatigue and I
could therefore maintain a good guard longer, and I would greatly reduce
the risk of tendonitis and sprained fingers by using it. That doesn't
mean it's a better rapier; it would mean I'm inventing some new style of
fencing that isn't really rapier fencing at all.
Hope that clears up my position,

Antone


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Old 10-28-2002, 06:08 AM   #4
Alister Oloughlin
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RE: [CFML] Fencing footware & injury

Dear All,

I'd have to agree with Antone on all of that, and would add that I disagree
with some other comments Jeff made.

> I am equally confused by your statement regarding historical
> accuracy & equipment. Some equipment is important to form,
> some isn't. Weapons are pretty important. It's hard to understand
> saber if you're trying to do it with a foil, and for rapier, you really
> need a rapier. But I'll take my modern fencing mask over the
> leather eye-masks that were all the eye protection that they had
> in the rennaisance. In fact, I'll take it over any 19th century mask
> as well. Some period equipment can actually hinder one's
> education.


Except that if we know they had no decent eye-protection back then we have
to consider how they did train in safety. We know there are comments
relating to 16th/17th C fencing masters in England and the propensity for
missing eyes, but we have to assume that the nobility would have been
reluctant to attend a salon where students were regularly blinded, maimed or
otherwise injured.

So how did they train? Currently my teacher and I are doing a great deal of
slowed but rythymic training - we use our home-made "boffers" - extremely
safe weapons that can't blind you but are great for sparring maskless, or we
train super-slow with our live Bailiff Forge rapiers.

The results have been a much improved footwork, and various discoveries
about timing within attacks and counters that would never have come about if
we'd trained masked up and at speed.

In all the studies of movement that I have ever undertaken I've seen that
the ability to work perfectly in slow-motion will result in a vastly
improved technique at speed. Ask any gymnast, acrobat or acro-balance
performer if you dispute this. And if you think it doesn't apply to
martial-arts ask yourself where Tai-Chi and Chi-Gung come from.

> Some of my early fencing instructors dated back to the time
> when fencing shoes were leather with doe-skin soles. Nobody
> missed them when more modern soles came around.


But they were preseumably modern fencers. So of course they would.
Historical fencers will point out the absence of a real sword in Modern
fencing and take the argument on from there. (I know that statement is
asking for trouble but I refer especially to the foil in that statement
which is training equipment, not a weapon).

Period
> equipment was the best that they had at the time, but that doesn't
> mean it was the best for the activity however.


No, but new does not equal best either. Would you rather listen to Ella
Fitzgerald or Britney Spears?

I can say the same
> about boxing gloves, wrestling mats & ear protection, and so
> forth. The distinction here is regarding safty equipment.


Boxing gloves have wrecked the art of boxing/pugalism. The current popular
guard position is useless except when wearing huge gloves. The equivalent
pugilist would rapidly dispatch a modern boxer because they practised a
martial art rather than a sport. It is not false to state that the presence
of sport reduces the art in any martial form.

Yours

Alister O'loughlin


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