Defining Brutality + Consequences

[Talyn]

This happened to me a while back I'm just wondering what you guys would've done.

The end score was 15-3 my way, but at the end of it my right elbow (fencing arm) was soooo bruised I could hardly lift up a foil... this was in a comp btw.

This is how it happened:

I kept doing double cut overs or beat attacks... stuff which would make it my way.

Anyway, all he did was counter-attack, but after counter-attacking he would slide his foil off and hit me in the arm pretty hard.

The ref didn't see it and my question is... What could he have done about it anyway?

*Admittedly it would have been incredibly hard to see because he would hit me so his light would go on then slide off to whack me.*

[rukovsoft]

well it s the same thing as the post about flicking.
if the ref sees it but is not sure he can go for a yello for disorganized fencing or give a warning then a yellow. then he increase the punishment to the black card if it s OBVIOUS the fencer is trying to harm you.

[Talyn]

yeh, but thats the basis of my question

I don't know a single ref that can card someone on shoddy evidence. with flicks you can hear it going PHWWAAAAAP

but with just counter attack followed by a slash to the elbow you can't see or hear anything.

[Swordmaster]

A little theatrics on your part might have helped. Sometimes refs need alittle coaxing. I have seen fencers who were "knocked down" in an epee corps a corps lay there until the ref yellow cards their oponent.
If you would have dropped your weapon, cried out and grabbed your elbow a few times in a row that might have gotten the refs attention. Of course you would have made your opponents day also, since he was clearly trying to enflict retrobution upon you.

A friend of mine who fences in NY, once told me that sometimes pay back is more pleasurable that seeing a card given. A good flat one across the chest might have changed his tactics, or at least got the refs attention that there was more than a friendly bout going on here, since that usually causes an escalation to the brutality.

[damianip]

Originally posted by Talyn
yeh, but thats the basis of my question

I don't know a single ref that can card someone on shoddy evidence. with flicks you can hear it going PHWWAAAAAP

but with just counter attack followed by a slash to the elbow you can't see or hear anything.

Technically, a ref kind find a way to card anyone. What the ref sees (or claims to see) is not open to debate. If the ref thinks you were fencing in a disorderly fashion, you can be carded. Most refes won't give out a card frivilously, but it happens.

I usually feel a little guilty handing out a card when I'm reffing. I like to be involved as little as possible in the outcome of a bout.

Paolo

[oiuyt]

Why should you feel guilty about carding someone when s/he deserves it? If you don't you're penalizing the fencer who DIDN'T deserve the card (doubly really, not only does his/her opponent not have a card with the various consequences of such, but the opponent was allowed to break the rules, generally something that results in an advantage, PLUS the opponent is likely to be able to do so again in the future without worry of penalty).

If you are reffing it is your job to ensure a level playing field. Part of that is awarding penalties to fencers who deserve them.

-B :)

[damianip]

Originally posted by oiuyt
Why should you feel guilty about carding someone when s/he deserves it? If you don't you're penalizing the fencer who DIDN'T deserve the card (doubly really, not only does his/her opponent not have a card with the various consequences of such, but the opponent was allowed to break the rules, generally something that results in an advantage, PLUS the opponent is likely to be able to do so again in the future without worry of penalty).

If you are reffing it is your job to ensure a level playing field. Part of that is awarding penalties to fencers who deserve them.

-B

Brad,

I knew you or Eric were going to get me on that statement.

I suspected that I had been too vague. Maybe I should say that I feel regretful that a situation arose in which the outcome of the bout was no longer a matter of the fencers' skills, and required my intercession. However, that's not going to stop me.

I'm not reticent about giving warnings or cards, particularly when I suspect gamesmanship on the part of one of the participants.

On the other hand I recently directed a pool at the Garden State Games where I handed out a record (for me) 13 yellow or red cards, just for weapons failures. I didn't feel guilty, just annoyed. It was a pool of ten grade school boys so I guess I should have expected it. Too bad I couldn't penalize their parents or coaches instead.

Paolo

[bjacobs]

Sometimes payback is the way to go. I'll ignore one excessive hit. I'll rub my arm and perhaps say "Sir?" in an incredulous voice after the second. But if it's obvious the ref isn't calling anything, and there's a third...

There are some people that don't even realize that they're hitting too hard, sometimes hitting even after the touch has been won. Occasionally you need to give them a very good reason to be careful. Normal part of fencing etiquette. Just be discrete.

[swordsen]

I too have no guilt about giving a card where one is deserved. In fact for some peopel I almost enjoy it. (which I know is wrong but some folks just deserve it more)

As for the original question concerning the elbow bruise, not much the ref could do about it. There is a big difference between intentional brutality and sloppy fencing.

[Talyn]

Yeh... sloppy fencing 15 times in a row heheheh

When I ref i hardly ever hand out cards for sloppy fencing because it might just be 'hard' fencing.