Epee vs Sabre

[741]

Let's say we have two guys that are identical physically and mentally, however, one trained in epee all his life, and the other trained in sabre all his life. They are going to fence with the following rules:
- no right of way
- can target anywhere on body
- both have same weapons that can score by the tip or the blade

And again, these two guys are identical in strength, speed, quickness, aggressiveness, and everything else, just assume one's a clone of the other for argument's sake.

Which one would have an advantage in a duel with these rules?

I think the only thing the epee fencer is lacking is being able to attack and defend with the blade of his sword, while the sabre fencer has to worry about no right of way, having legs as target, not having good enough point control and dealing with thrusting attacks. What do you guys think?

[Wizardly]

So, let me get this straight..."In an epee match between an epee and a saber fencer, who would win?" Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. I'm going to go with the epee fencer...I know it's a long shot, but call me crazy, I think he can do it.

[whtouche]

Well, the way you described it, they would be using sabres. In which case Id give the edge to the sabre fencer.

Assuming it's a new alien breed weapon, all other things being equal Id still go with the sabre fencer. particularly if he's a bad sabre fencer and already has no concept of right of way
Some of those guys can counterattack pretty quick

[Peach]

The debate over who would win in a duel always amuses me - it's a hypothetical with an AWFUL lot of "ifs." We train with excessively light weapons that bend easily and are designed not to hurt people. A good fencer trains to hit with a touch, not a true piercing or slashing action, whether epee or sabre, because those are the most efficient when you are trying to get a touch rather than maim or kill your opponent.

I suspect that it doesn't matter which weapon a combatant were trained in--possibly the worse fencer would win, because they had the least training to overcome. At least the most ruthless and most willing to exert excessive force would win. In other words, that guy at the club nobody wants to fence because he's awful and he hurts you.

[Indy4ever]

well said peach. this is a slightly pointless topic...

[whtouche]

In responding I was just assuming that we were talking about an actual fencing bout not a real life 'duel' so to speak.

[Peach]

Oh, bouting. In real life, whenever I have convinced an epee fencer at the club (someone who usually only fences epee) to fence sabre with me, I have beaten him. In sabre tournaments, I have to adapt my game if I see my opponent also fences epee, but unless they regularly do sabre I can usually beat them. They usually cause a good deal of distress to sabre fencers who sweep in on them grandly without changing their game, because epee fencers can pull off very late parries and they can counter-attack very effectively if you enter their distance without deep suspicion and a crooked mind.

I never let anyone convince me to fence epee with them because I do not wish to cause anyone the acute stomach distress which would result from watching me try.

I realize this proves absolutely nothing.

[thyme_daniels]

since this is a hypothetical situation, i will give you a hypothetical response: an epee fencer would win, because that is how it's done. i don't know much about sabre, but don't they sometimes come in with their arm back? i think an epee fencer would win because there is no right of way, so he must constantly be on guard (heh heh). but hey, it may be a toss up. but i would bet on epee. i just like the weapon more.

[Saber-Psycho]

<-----------------Duh

[741]

Originally posted by Wizardly
So, let me get this straight..."In an epee match between an epee and a saber fencer, who would win?" Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. I'm going to go with the epee fencer...I know it's a long shot, but call me crazy, I think he can do it.

It's not an epee match because I said that the blade of the weapon can be used to score touches also, much like the blade of a sabre is used to score touches. Call me crazy, but I don't think epee fencers are used to attacking and defending using the blade of their weapons.

[Wizardly]

Have you ever found yourself realizing that 1 letter can change the entire meaning of something? I'm finding myself realizing this right now. I could have sworn that read "- both have same weapons that can score by the tip oF the blade," not "- both have same weapons that can score by the tip oR the blade."

In this case, I'll give it to the saberist on the grounds that (s)he is the only one concerned with whether or not (s)he'll live (due to having to fence with ROW). Then again, I'm also assuming we're dueling to the death here and not just trying to swiss cheese someone's wrist. "While your point is safely embedded in my foot, I'm going to take this opportunity to sever your head."

[Dragonfly]

You've come up with an identical twin study. One trained in epee, which would mean he has all the targets down; as the saborist slices away. There's a lot of bravado in saber, could be a toss up. We'd have to locate some equally talented fencers in epee and saber, with twin like attributes and put them to the test. But it could go either way? The saber fencer is used to using the cut/side of the sword so he may end up losing points, coming in close, while the epeeist goes for the double touch again. Sounds like fun.

[MikeHarm]

Why be hypothetical? Lets get a sabreist and epeeist with the same rating and see how the bout goes.

[Inquartata]

Assuming their abilities WERE exactly identical ( an impossibility, of course, but for the sake of argument ), and the only difference their weapon specialty...the winner would be the one who had the best bit of luck. Random chance is the only deciding factor left unaccounted for.

[Wizardly]

Ahh, but see, there is the rub with ratings - it is a measure of relative strength within the weapon, not general strength for all weapons. Let's say the FIE creates a fourth weapon called "pokey." After a couple of years some pokey fencers earn an A. Pit an A pokeyist versus an A foilist and what do you have? Dead pokey. (Of course, we also assume that pokey is as different from any of the three weapons as they are from each other.)

[Philistine]

Originally posted by Wizardly
Ahh, but see, there is the rub with ratings - it is a measure of relative strength within the weapon, not general strength for all weapons. Let's say the FIE creates a fourth weapon called "pokey." After a couple of years some pokey fencers earn an A. Pit an A pokeyist versus an A foilist and what do you have? Dead pokey. (Of course, we also assume that pokey is as different from any of the three weapons as they are from each other.)

But it used to be that getting a certain rating would give you a (lesser) rating in the two other weapons.

IIRC, an A gave you a C in the others, and a B gave you a D--I don't recall if a C gave you an E. This changed in the mid-90's, I believe.

--Philistine

[Wizardly]

Yeah, I remember they used to do that. I take it they don't anymore? (I never got my C, so I never found out about getting an honorary E).

[741]

Originally posted by Wizardly

In this case, I'll give it to the saberist on the grounds that (s)he is the only one concerned with whether or not (s)he'll live (due to having to fence with ROW). Then again, I'm also assuming we're dueling to the death here and not just trying to swiss cheese someone's wrist. "While your point is safely embedded in my foot, I'm going to take this opportunity to sever your head."

Would fencing with ROW really help you live in a real duel though? The example you gave is a good one, however, the sabreist might have the mentally that he's safe when he has right of way even though that's not always the case.

[Wizardly]

No, the duelist is not always safe...THEY'RE IN A DUEL!
However, the ROW fencer does know when they aren't being suicidal...there is no way to know if the other person is inclined to be careless with their life. Would ROW help you in a duel? By itself, no. Add to it the realization that you could very well die, then I think it would give an advantage. (The threat of death will make anyone extremely conservative no matter what - the ROW fencer will be less likely to forget to be carful.)

[MikeHarm]

If they both had A's I think you'd be good.