Funny that not much has been posted about the Pan-Am games, including information on the US Fencing website (I guess that's more to be expected rather than a funny quirk).
Anyway, Kellner beat Tiomkin for the gold. Gonzalez of Venezuela defeated Smart then Cross to win the gold in WF, with Cross getting silver and Smart a bronze.
Sada crunched the opponents for the gold in WS with sister Emily earning the bronze.
8/2/2003
Talented Fencers in Contention for Individual, Team Successes
The United States is fielding a young, but strong team for the 2003 Pan American Games and will seek medals in every event. Two athletes will represent the U.S. in individual competition, with a third joining in
team contests.
Leading the U.S. contingent is Sada Jacobson, currently ranked #1 in
the world in women's sabre. She will be joined by her sister, Emily
Jacobson, currently ranked #6 in the world, and 2003 NCAA Champion Alexis Jemal in team competition.
Ivan Lee, the 2003 U.S. National Champion, will anchor the strong
men's sabre squad with Jason Rogers and Adam Crompton, both silver medal team members at the 2003 Junior World Championships.
The women's foil team -- 2000 Olympic alternate Erinn Smart, 2003
Cadet World Champion Emily Cross and 2003 Junior World finalist Hannah
Thompson-- will seek multiple medals in individual and team competition.
The men's foil squad is strong and experienced and looking to defend
or exceed its 1999 silver Pan American team medal. Dan Kellner returns to
lead the trio that also includes 2003 National Champion Jon Tiompkin and
fellow veteran national team member Jed Dupree.
Stephanie Eim, the 2003 National Champion and currently ranked #1 in
the United States, will anchor the women's epee team, joined by Elizabeth Spillman and pentathlete Kelly Hurley for team competition.
Eric Hansen, a finalist in last month's World Cup in Argentina, will
be joined by top U.S. ranked and 2002 U.S. National Champion Seth Kelsey,
and Soren Thomson, the 2002 Junior World Championship bronze medalist.
Results from the Pan American Games do not count towards Olympic Games qualification, but is a good indicator of how the USA could fare in the regional Olympic qualification event.
Fencing for the 2003 Pan American Games will begin on Aug. 2, starting
with men's foil and women's sabre individual competition, and end on
Aug. 7 with men's sabre and women's epee team events.
U.S. Off to Fast Start at Pan Am Games
BARRY WILNER
Associated Press
SANTO DOMINGO, Dominican Republic - The United States used pinpoint shooting on the range and at the basket Saturday night to overcome a slow start at the Pan American Games.
Americans won gold and bronze in pistol, swept two fencing events, took the gold medal in women's gymnastics and topped it off with a thrilling comeback victory over an experienced Argentina team in men's basketball.
Greco-Roman wrestling star Rulon Gardner won two matches, as did teammate and fellow Olympian Brandon Paulson.
The U.S. gymnasts beat Canada and Brazil in the team competition, led by teenagers Nastia Liukin and Chellsie Memmel.
Liukin, 13, of Plano, Texas, scored 37.474 in four events (uneven bars, floor exercise, balance beam, vault), best in the field. American teammate Chellsie Memmel, 15, of West Allis, Wis., had the second highest score.
"We all had a good meet and we all did great as a team, trying to help each other," Liukin said. "We are very excited to be the first (U.S.) gold medalist at the 2003 Pan American Games."
That helped make up for decisive U.S. losses in women's basketball and handball and a scoreless tie in men's field hockey.
The most dramatic event of opening day was the U.S. men's basketball win, 80-79. Blake Stepp's 3-pointer and a jumper by Rickey Paulding in the final 1:20 capped the comeback from an eight-point deficit in the final quarter.
With the game tied at 74, Stepp, of Gonzaga, hit his long shot from the right wing to give the United States the lead. Paulding, of Missouri, missed a dunk over a defender with 51 seconds remaining, then made up for it with a 14-footer with 18 seconds on the clock for a five-point lead that stood up.
"We had to match their intensity in the second half," Paulding said. "I just tried to keep staying aggressive."
In women's fencing, the team saber and foil events were canceled in May, but the U.S. contingent said it was not alerted until Saturday. Sada Jacobson of Atlanta is the world's top-ranked fencer in saber, making the Americans a strong possibility for team gold.
She won the individual saber, beating Venezuela's Alejandra Benitez 15-4 after Benitez upset Sada's younger sister, Emily, 15-14 in the semifinals. Emily won a bronze.
The U.S. Olympic Committee is seeking a clarification on the dropping of the women's team saber and foil from the Pan American Sports Organization, which told delegates two days ago that every scheduled event would be held.
"It was not communicated to the U.S. delegation, or somehow it got lost," said Suzie Paxton, a spokeswoman for U.S. Fencing.
But Pan American Fencing Federation president Hanibal Illueco said every other nation knew the two events were not on the schedule.
"This seems to be a communications problem within the United States," Illueco said.
Dan Kellner of Warren, N.J., beat Jon Tiomkin of New York, his training partner, 15-13 in the men's foil final. That avenged a rout at the hands of Tiomkin in January.
"Jon's had my number lately a lot," Kellner said. "The last time we fenced, he beat me 15-2."
Gardner, whose upset of the supposedly unbeatable Alexander Karelin in the 2000 Olympics made him a national hero, won his first Pan Ams match 4-0 over Edwin Millet of Puerto Rico. Then he defeated Rafael Bareno of Venezuela 4-0.
In the midst of a comeback from a 2002 snowmobiling accident that resulted in the amputation of a toe, Gardner believes he is not in top form yet.
He looked fine Saturday.
"I want to win the Pan American Games, then the world championships next month and then hopefully represent the U.S. in Athens," he said.
A 10-0, six-inning victory over Guatemala gave the U.S. baseball team its 23rd straight victory. Dan Putnam had three hits, and Eric Patterson scored three runs.
The American women's basketball squad got some familiar treatment from the Cubans, falling 84-62. The United States, which lost three straight in Cuba last month, was outscored 15-0 to start the second half after building a 14-point lead.
"We know each other so well," U.S. coach Debbie Ryan said. "They came out with a lot more energy and we didn't have energy. They pressured and we didn't handle the pressure."
The first medals of the games were awarded in women's air rifle, with Cuba's Eglis Cruz taking the gold over Melissa Mulloy of Middleton, Mass.
"I came with expectations, but I never thought I'd experience happiness like this," Cruz said. "It's always important to win a gold. But this time I hope it has even more importance because it can pave the way for many more Cuban victories."
In men's 10-meter pistol, the United States took gold and bronze. Jason Turner of Rochester, N.Y., finished first, with John Bickar of Canton, Ohio, in third.
Mulloy and Turner earned 2004 Olympic berths for the United States.
Another U.S. team getting nowhere was in women's handball, where Brazil won 36-13. But the men beat Puerto Rico 31-24 as Gary "Hang Time" Hines of Atlanta scored 12 goals. The men's water polo team routed the host Dominicans 24-0.
The men's field hockey squad tied Chile 0-0 in the first team event of the games.
U.S. gymnast Sho Nakamori of Albany, Calif., broke his left leg in warmups for the men's team competition and will be flown home Sunday. The men's team finished third behind Cuba and Brazil.
In the first day of fencing competition for the Pan American Games, the U.S. Fencing Team heard the U.S. national anthem twice and took home four medals.
Sada Jacobson (Atlanta, Ga.) and Dan Kellner (New York, N.Y.) won gold in the women’s sabre and men’s foil individual competition, respectively, to kick the U.S. team off to a great start. Jon Tiomkin (New York, N.Y.), the silver medallist, met Kellner in a close gold medal match, 15-13, and Emily Jacobson (Atlanta, Ga.), Sada’s sister, won the bronze medal after losing the semi-final match to Alejandra Benitez of Venezuela, 15-14.
Sada Jacobson, ranked No. 1 in the world, was seeded first and favored to win, but still felt the pressure entering the competition. “I feel pressure when people are looking to the U.S. team to do well and this is such a prestigious event. Everyone in the competition was out to win and was fencing hard. It forced me to bring out my best game.” Jacobson won the gold medal match over Benitez, 15-4.
Kellner, a returning Pan American Games silver medallist in a team event, won his first international competition gold medal. “I’m very happy. This is the first time I’ve heard the national anthem played at an international event because of my result. I’ve come in second or third in international competition, but this is the first gold.”
Tiomkin, after losing two bouts in the first round, fought his way through the direct elimination format to a close loss in the gold medal match. “I’m happy for Dan that he won and that he is Pan American champion. He fenced really well. It was a thrill to see two American flags go up on the medal stand.”
Bronze medallist Emily Jacobson narrowly missed a chance to compete in the gold medal match, falling by one touch in her semifinal bout. She was down 2-6 when she began to turn the match around in the second encounter, battling back to a 14-14 tie before losing the final touch. “It took me a while to get into the tempo of the bout. I knew what to do and when I changed it was a little too late. I’m still happy to win the bronze, but of course, I would have loved to be in the final match.”
Although the Pan American Games do not count for Olympic qualification, both Kellner and Tiomkin were quick to focus on the upcoming team event, which will serve as an indicator of how the U.S. men’s foil team may fare for Olympic qualification by zone.
“This was icing on the cake to win the individual event, but our goal the whole time has been to come here and win the team event. We want to show the other Pan American teams that we are the top team from our zone,” said Kellner shortly after his individual victory. “Both the individual and team events here will also help us to get ready for World Championships.”
The USA returns to action on Sunday with the start of the women’s foil individual and men’s epee individual events. Leading the American squad are Erinn Smart (Brooklyn, N.Y.) and Emily Cross (New York, N.Y.) in women’s foil and Eric Hansen (San Bruno, Calif.) and Seth Kelsey (Brush Prairie, Wash.)
Emily Cross (New York, N.Y.) won a silver medal in women's individual foil competition in her first appearance at the Pan American Games. The 2003 Cadet World Champion was turning the momentum of the match, before Venezuela's Mariana Gonzalez scored the final two touches to win the gold medal, 15-9.
Erinn Smart (Brooklyn, N.Y.) took the bronze medal after soundly beating Venezuela's Johana Fuenmayor 15-7 in the semi-final bout but then lost by one touch to Gonzalez 15-14 to advance to the gold medal match.
"This has been a great experience," reflected Cross after receiving her silver medal. "That was a really tough battle," when asked about the gold medal match. "That was a very tough bout. In the middle my legs started to feel like Jello, and she was really fighting hard."
At two different times in the semi-final match between Smart and Gonzalez, the match was delayed for technical reasons. "I was a bit frustrated because of the technical difficulties that was going on," said Smart after the close match. The U.S. team asked to review two touches that may not have hit valid, but the technical problems could not be reproduced. Regardless of the outcome of the close semi-final match, Smart was pleased with her overall performance and to go home with a Pan American bronze medal.
In a day of close matches for the U.S. team, not only did Smart lose by one touch to advance to the gold medal bout, but both men's individual epeeist, Eric Hansen (San Bruno, Calif.), and Seth Kelsey (Brush Prairie, Wash.) lost by one touch to advance to the top eight of the competition.
Hansen, after a strong showing in the first round pool, was seeded No. 2 in the direct elimination competition. He then faced an opponent in the round of 16 he had faced and beat in the pools. "He was fencing really well, and I kept the score low." Time ran out when the two fencers were tied 8-8. In the sudden death touch, Hansen lost by one touch. "I made an action that had worked fine during the bout, but it didn't work that time. I was just a little bit out of distance, time was running out, and I kind of forced it."
Kelsey, currently the top ranked U.S. men's epeeist, met Jonathan Pena of Peru in the round of 16. "I did well in the pools, made some adjustments, but it eventually came down to one touch," said Kelsey after losing 15-14. "I was pumped coming here and wanted to do well. It was a really tough competition."
Boris Camilo of Cuba was the eventual winner in the men's epee competition defeating Silvio Fernandez of Venezuela 15-11.
The U.S. team has won two gold, two silver, and two bronze medals after two days of competition. The USA returns to action on Monday with the start of the women's epee and men's sabre individual events. Leading the American squad are Stephanie Eim (New York, N.Y.) and Elisabeth Spilman (Los Angeles, Calif.) in women's epee and Ivan Lee (Brooklyn, N.Y) and Jason Rogers (Los Angeles, Calif.) in men's sabre.
From The USOC News:
Fencing
Emily Cross (New York, N.Y.) and Erinn Smart (Brooklyn, N.Y.) won a silver and bronze medal, respectively, in the women's foil individual competition on Sunday. They join four teammates from Saturday's events in giving the United States team a total of six medals after the first two days of competition.
Cross, the 2003 Cadet World Champion, was turning the momentum of the match before Venezuela's Mariana Gonzalez scored the final two touches to win the gold medal, 15-9. Smart took the bronze medal after soundly beating Venezuela's Johana Fuenmayor 15-7 in the semifinal bout but then lost by one touch to Gonzalez 15-14, eliminating the possibility to advance to the gold medal match.
Sada Jacobson (Atlanta, Ga.), won gold in the women's sabre and sister Emily Jacobson (Atlanta, Ga.) won the bronze medal on Saturday. In men's foil competition, both Dan Kellner (New York, N.Y.) and Jon Tiomkin (New York, N.Y.) advanced to the final gold medal match to assure the U.S. team top medal finishes. Kellner defeated Tiomkin in a close gold medal match, 15-13.
In a day of close matches for the U.S. team on Sunday, not only did Smart lose by one touch to advance to the gold medal bout, but both men's individual epeeists, Eric Hansen (San Bruno, Calif.) and Seth Kelsey (Brush Prairie, Wash.) lost by one touch to advance to the top eight of the competition.
UP NEXT: The U.S. Fencing Team is back in action Monday with women's individual epee at 9:00 and men's individual sabre at 11:00. Finals in both events begin at 18:00.
Ivan Lee (Brooklyn, N.Y.) and Jason Rogers (Los Angeles, Calif.) won gold and bronze respectively in the men´s individual sabre competition of the Pan American Games. Tonight's victories brought the total number of medals to eight for the U.S. fencing team, including three gold, two silver, and three bronze.
In the gold medal match, Lee solidly beat Venezuela's Carlos Bravo 15-7 to take the third Pan American Games gold medal for the U.S. fencing team. The two Americans did not lose a single match all day until Rogers lost to Lee 15-11 to advance to the gold medal match.
"We were hoping to be seeded first and second in the competition, to assure we would not meet until the finals if we each won our matches, but instead we were seeded second and third, so we met in the semi-finals," Rogers said after the competition. He added, "I'm really pleased with the way I fenced. This was a great stepping stone for me and will be a huge help going into World Championships in October."
Strong showings in women's epee
In women's epee competition, Stephanie Eim (New York, N.Y.) and Elisabeth Spillman (Los Angeles, Calif.) finished seventh and eight respectively.
Spilman upset Cuban star, Zuleydis Ortiz of Cuba 15-7 to advance to the quarterfinal match. Both Americans lost their matches in the quarterfinals, eliminating the chance to advance to the semi-final match. Eim, a returning U.S. Pan American team member, lost to Cuba's Eimey Gomez, 14-10 and Spilman was defeated 15-7 by bronze medalist Endrina Alvarez of Venezuela.
Both women reflected on good parts of the competition that they will take with them into the 2003 World Championships in October, an important Olympic qualification event.
"I felt good about my bout to get into the top eight. She was a
tough draw for me, and I had to trust my ability to attack and be strong in that game. It will give me great confidence going into World Championships," Eim remarked after the competition. She then drew the eventual Pan American Games champion and Cuban standout Gomez." She is an internationally strong competitor and true veteran. I was down at the beginning and glad I got the score back within two touches but time was running out."
Spilman gained great confidence in her upset victory over Cuba's Ortiz. "I wish I could fence every bout like this. I think I got the timing and I really felt the bout. I was trying to keep the score even at the beginning but I was really feeling the timing on my attacks, so I just went for it."
Reflecting on her quarterfinal bout against Alverez, Spilman said "At the beginning, I wasn´t warmed up so I rushed and got down 4-1. I brought it back within a touch and then got frustrated with a few calls from the referee. After the break, I cooled off and tried to bring it back but at that point it was too late." Gomez beat Canada's Sherraine McKay 15-5 in the women's epee gold medal match.
The U.S. is back in action tomorrow at 9AM, when Dan Kellner (New York, N.Y.), Jon Tiomkin (Brooklyn, N.Y.), and Jed Dupree (New York, N.Y.) will battle the field in the men's team foil competition. Kellner and Tiomkin were the Pan American men's foil individual gold and silver champions.
I'd like to see the full results for the Men's epee competition before commenting too extensively, but I have to say i'm actually surprised we didn't end up doing better. Seth Kelsey had been fencing very well recently, and I'm surprised that he'd lose to Pena, and, although Pena is a solid fencer, I think his world ranking is inflated. It'll be interesting to see whether we'll end up qualifying a team, considering our comparatively poor showing in the individual Pan Ams.
I'd also say that epee (men's and women's) is probably one of the strongest weapons in the US's hemisphere for countries that are not the United States. Chile, Puerto Rico, Canada, Cuba, Venezuela and other countries all have strong programs, though they lack the depth, they do have some strong individuals. In the team event, I'm pretty sure the US can get a medal.
__________________
Epee is the Louis Vuitton bag of fencing: only the best can get it, and the rest of the masses must content themselves with cheap knockoffs (sabre, foil)
To not recognize the power of the French grip is to be in denial
I should point out that it's not just this result which is leading me to this conclusion. In general, epee performs more weakly than foil, and MUCH more weakly than sabre. a clear pecking order has developed in this country. Hopefully, this is only a step along the way to the final result of ALL strong programs.
Originally posted by epeemike81 I should point out that it's not just this result which is leading me to this conclusion. In general, epee performs more weakly than foil, and MUCH more weakly than sabre. a clear pecking order has developed in this country. Hopefully, this is only a step along the way to the final result of ALL strong programs.
-m
I agree that sabre is above both foil and epee, and both in men's and women's. However, if you look closely at the results for this season for men's epee and men's foil, you will see that the best men's epeeist has more points than the best men's foilist on the national point list. I know, points may not be calculated exactly the same way, but it's a good approximation IMO.
Also, in the FIE ranking, the best American foil fencer is 31st, with 52 points, and the best American epee fencer is 46th, with guess what, 52 points as well.
The best result this year in men's foil was a silver medal in Caracas, and the best result this year in men's epee was a bronze medal in Cuba. All in all, I think that both weapons are about equal in strength, especially when factoring in the fact that there are much more competitors globally in epee than in foil.
It's also harder to be consistent in your placing in epee than in foil. If you look at Dan Kellner's results, in most events that were 2.000 strength factor, he made the top 64 each time by a hair. He is the number one US foil fencer. The number one US epee fencer, Seth Kelsey has had better finishes than him in this class of events in general, finishing in top 64 but with better pool results allowing him to be in the upper part of the top 64 as opposed to the lower one.
Women's foil is largely better than women's epee in the US, however.
__________________
Epee is the Louis Vuitton bag of fencing: only the best can get it, and the rest of the masses must content themselves with cheap knockoffs (sabre, foil)
To not recognize the power of the French grip is to be in denial
The U.S. men's foil team of Dan Kellner (New York, N.Y.), Jon Tiomkin (New York, N.Y.), and Jed Dupree (New York, N.Y.) won gold Tuesday night in an intense and emotional bout against Cuba. In a come-from-behind win, the U.S. team beat the Cubans, 45-44, after trailing 30-40 going into the final match. Kellner, anchor for the U.S. team outscored Cuban fencing star Reinier Suarez 15-4 to secure the victory for the U.S. team.
It was the USA's first win over Cuba in foil fencing since 1971.
The impact of this event has far-reaching results. The Pan American Games do not count towards Olympic Games qualification, but is a good indicator of how the U.S. men's foil team could fare in the regional Olympic qualification event. Only one team from each region will go to the Olympic Games in Athens.
UP NEXT: The U.S. Men's Epee Team will be dueling it out on Wednesday with prelims beginning at 9:00 and finals taking place at 18:00.
From Suzie Paxton:
Dan Kellner, anchor of men's foil gold medal team and individual gold medalist:
On his 15-4 comeback win over Cuba star Raul Perojo...
"This is definitely one of the most pinnacle moments in my fencing career."
"To make a 14-4 comeback, I'm not sure if I've ever seen it, let alone done it. There's nothing like winning a team event. I'm just so psyched I could step up and help the team. Our goal was to win gold here and I can't ask for a bigger ending. I just wish this were the qualification for the Olympics."
"This was a great confidence builder for World Championships."
"I lost 2-5 in the first bout and then the second match, I started
to fence better and could feel my confidence growing. I have a lot of confidence against Perojo because I beat him to make the finals in the individuals 15-6."
"The only time I really looked at the score was at 41-38 and I realized I could definitely do this. I felt like I was in a trance and at 44-42 it broke, and then he got two touches. At 44-44 I finished the action looked up and saw one light."
On the team winning...
"Winning the individual (gold medal) was icing on the cake but our job here was to beat the Cubans and to show them that we are definitely the best country from this region (to qualify to the Olympic Games)."
"I've been on the U.S. team since I was 19 and I've never been on a team that could beat the Cubans."
"Jon and Jed were behind me all the way. I've never been on a team that has this great a chemistry. We're a team that's greater than the sum of its parts. We're all part of a machine and when we're all doing our job, we can just steam roll anyone in the World. We've now beaten the Cubans, Italians, and the Chinese."
On the celebration...
"I can't believe we are leaving on a flight back home tonight. We wanted to stay and celebrate. We'll have to do that on the flight."
"I've always dreamed of being thrown up in the air like that."
[b]Jon Tiomkin, men's foil gold medal team member:
On Dan's performance...
"There are no words to describe it. No words at all. That was absolutely incredible. I've never seen a comeback like that in my life at such a high level competition and with such high stakes. Projobo is an extremely good international fencer and he has tons of experience."
On the team...
"That gave us a lot of confidence going into World Championships. That was such a huge win."
Jed Dupree, men's foil gold medal team member:
On Dan's performance...
"It was unbelievable. That gave us a lot of confidence going into
World Championships. We have a better sense of everyone's potential."
"After watching that, I'm more confident in getting a real job that pays after I'm done fencing."
On what they said to him after he won...
I couldn't say anything. We just ran to throw him up in the air. It
was difficult because he's pretty heavy."
Soren Thompson, men's foil gold medal team member (alternate):
On Dan's comeback...
"That was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in fencing. Actually, it was the most amazing thing I've seen."
Jeff Bukantz, U.S. Fencing Team Captain:
On the win...
"You dream of comebacks like that. 99% of the time, you might get close but can't get over the hump. We knew Dan beat him (Probojo) by a large margin in individuals but team is another story. Its the first time we've beaten the Cuban team since 1971 in men's foil."
"This gives them tremendous confidence because they are trying to qualify to the Olympic by team and preparing for Worlds in Havana in October."
On men's foil national team coach, Simon Gershon...
"The lion's share of the credit goes to their coach, Simon Gershon, who prepares the team mentally, physically, and tactically. The fencer's trust him and he's the glue to this team."
On Dan Kellner's performance...
"Kellner proved tonight without a doubt that he is the best men's foil fencer in Santo Domingo and in this hemisphere." "This was monumental for Dan. I'm really happy for him and the whole team."
Originally posted by veeco Also, in the FIE ranking, the best American foil fencer is 31st, with 52 points, and the best American epee fencer is 46th, with guess what, 52 points as well.
This proves my point for me. clearly, the more important stat is ranking. points are a means to an end. if the foilist is 31st in the world, and the epeeist is 46th, the foilist is performing at a higher level...
To look at strength of program, lets take the top three ranked fencers in each weapon and sum their places:
Foil:
Kellner: 31
Dupree: 58
Tiomkin: 60
Total: 149
I'm not disregarding how far our epee has come. my guess is that they, as well, are experiencing an upward trend. I AM, however, asserting that both foil and sabre have come FARTHER.
Again, I reiterate that I'm hopeful ALL weapons will continue to have an accelerating upward trend.
Originally posted by epeemike81 This proves my point for me. clearly, the more important stat is ranking. points are a means to an end. if the foilist is 31st in the world, and the epeeist is 46th, the foilist is performing at a higher level...
To look at strength of program, lets take the top three ranked fencers in each weapon and sum their places:
Foil:Total: 149
Epee:188
But what you are failling to look at when comparing the actual ranking number, is that it is relative only to the size and depth of that weapon's field. ME has 402 competitors on the Ranking, and MF has 317.
If you take each top US male competitor's ranking, and adjust by the total number of competitors ranked in each weapon, you will find that each competitor is in the same percentile -- indicating that the 52 points for each will land you in the same percentile for either weapon.
Again, the same thing with your aggregate numbers -- you can't compare apples with oranges; but likewise, if you adjust for strength of field, you would see that both foil and epee teams would b in the 47th percentile.
Both these weapons are doing as well as the other.
I am proud and excited for our Pan Am team, but it was neither history making nor "the best finish ever for a U.S. team at the Pan American Games." Moreover, this year's team only tied the 1959 team in number of medals won.
In 1959, with only seven events being contested (women's individual foil, and men's individual and team in each weapon), we won six gold medals, four silver and one bronze. That is, we won every team event, swept men's foil, took first and second in men's epee and sabre and only lost the women's foil gold in the last bout. Members of that team still active in USFA competition are William Goering, Paul Levy and Ed Richards. Additionally, in 1959, a fencer (George Worth) had the honor of reciting the Pan American oath for the assembled athletes at the opening ceremonies; he also carried the flag for the entire United States contingent.
While our results in 2003 were excellent, in 1959 every male member of the team won at least a gold medal and two of the three women finished in the top four, winning the silver!
Originally posted by nahouw But what you are failling to look at when comparing the actual ranking number, is that it is relative only to the size and depth of that weapon's field. ME has 402 competitors on the Ranking, and MF has 317.
If you take each top US male competitor's ranking, and adjust by the total number of competitors ranked in each weapon, you will find that each competitor is in the same percentile -- indicating that the 52 points for each will land you in the same percentile for either weapon.
Again, the same thing with your aggregate numbers -- you can't compare apples with oranges; but likewise, if you adjust for strength of field, you would see that both foil and epee teams would b in the 47th percentile.
Both these weapons are doing as well as the other.
Ah. I see. so, I assume in epee, they give medals to a deeper spot due to the larger field? Until they do, I'm going to continue to judge success on absolute place. Besides, percentile is quite a misleading stat in this case. The increased field size in epee is largely due to countries which don't place fencers above the Americans. True, som Scandanavian countries field good fencers and only in epee, but they are the exception. Extra fencers below the americans do not lower their absolute placement, but do make their percentile look better.
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