Is modern fencing far remove from real fencing ?

Hi all,
I think it would be an intersting topic to discus!
What i mean is, the technique used in today modern sport fencing are still
realistic in face of what fencing used to be in the terms of duelling.
I let you all argue a little bit about this !

Agleos Arkeneight

This has been argued to death. Most of us aren't all that interested
in it any more. I'd be more interested in a thread about whether, for
instance, fencing was comparable to auto racing. Or golf. Or
literary analysis. Or grocery shopping.


--Delia

"Trim Plus Expert" <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote in message news:<8TuWa.714$Ji1.153715@news20.bellglobal.com>. ..
> Hi all,
> I think it would be an intersting topic to discus!
> What i mean is, the technique used in today modern sport fencing are still
> realistic in face of what fencing used to be in the terms of duelling.
> I let you all argue a little bit about this !
>
> Agleos Arkeneight

In rec.sport.fencing on 1 Aug 2003 10:06:26 -0700
Delia M. Turner <dmturner@dmturner.org> wrote:
> This has been argued to death. Most of us aren't all that interested
> in it any more. I'd be more interested in a thread about whether, for
> instance, fencing was comparable to auto racing. Or golf. Or
> literary analysis. Or grocery shopping.
>

Hmmm. car racing. Well... the footwork in car racing is equally
important, but I don't know the angle of the knee is as vital, and the
distance between the feet is very easy to keep exactly the same. Racing
car drivers do seem to attack on the pass, a thing sport fencers no
longer do, and many historical fencers have trouble with. There is
often body-to-body contact in car racing, but like fencing, it's
not allowed in the rules except for certain variant rulesets which
aren't in common use but some folk really go for them.

The injury rate in car racing is probably similar, althoug the injuries
tend to be greater - fewer knee reconstructions, more broken bones.

Fencing's cheaper than car racing, but car racing gets more spectators.

Both have to have special clothing to compete, but people who just do it
for fun rather than at formal competitions often just do it in whatever
clothing they have at hand.

Fencing blades break reasonably often, but so do car motors.

So looks like car racing and fencing are pretty similar!

Zebee

"Trim Plus Expert" <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote in
news:8TuWa.714$Ji1.153715@news20.bellglobal.com:

> Hi all,
> I think it would be an intersting topic to discus!
> What i mean is, the technique used in today modern sport fencing are
> still realistic in face of what fencing used to be in the terms of
> duelling. I let you all argue a little bit about this !

No, not realistic. So what?

I've never seen a fencer burst into flame after hitting the side of the
piste...

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

Zebee Johnstone wrote:

>Hmmm. car racing. Well... the footwork in car racing is equally
>important, but I don't know the angle of the knee is as vital, and the
>distance between the feet is very easy to keep exactly the same.
>

The 'angle of the knee' comment bubbled up a thought -- Is it possible
since fencing is such a linear sport that the sides of the knee get less
of a work-out and are more prone to stress related damage (ACL tears for
example).

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

In rec.sport.fencing on Fri, 01 Aug 2003 20:32:04 -0400
Amy & Joseph Kormann <ajkormann@monmouth.com> wrote:
> Zebee Johnstone wrote:
>
>>Hmmm. car racing. Well... the footwork in car racing is equally
>>important, but I don't know the angle of the knee is as vital, and the
>>distance between the feet is very easy to keep exactly the same.
>>
>
> The 'angle of the knee' comment bubbled up a thought -- Is it possible
> since fencing is such a linear sport that the sides of the knee get less
> of a work-out and are more prone to stress related damage (ACL tears for
> example).


Well.. the knee is a joint designed to work in one plane only. It's not
a swivel joint.

You can build up muscles around it, so that *if* you try and move it in
ways it isn't meant to go, it doesn't fare too badly.

If you have perfect form, I don't think the knee is strained. But who
has perfect form?

Zebee

--
Zebee Johnstone (zebee@zip.com.au), proud holder of
aus.motorcycles Poser Permit #1.
"Motorcycles are like peanuts... who can stop at just one?"

Better yet, Agleos....let's argue/debate/guess what a "Trim Plus Expert"
is!!!
I'll go first!
I'll guess.....a really good seamstress?
No, no...let me guess again!
Something to do with weight loss????
No, no...one more time!
........a super-duper finish carpenter????

XXOO
Harp

Come on, Agleos....gotta have a sense of humor in this group!!!
"Trim Plus Expert" <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote in message
news:8TuWa.714$Ji1.153715@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Hi all,
> I think it would be an intersting topic to discus!
> What i mean is, the technique used in today modern sport fencing are still
> realistic in face of what fencing used to be in the terms of duelling.
> I let you all argue a little bit about this !
>
> Agleos Arkeneight
>
>

Amy & Joseph Kormann wrote:

>Is it possible... that the sides of the knee get less
> of a work-out and are more prone to stress related damage (ACL tears for
> example).
>

Not my _back_ knee! *grin* I've wondered similar things, though, about
my front one, and have tried to strengthen it using some improvised
scissors type exercises. It's helped a bit, I think. Maybe. I still go
back and forth about blaming my popping knee on hard surfaces or on
muscle imbalance. On alternate Wednesdays I blame it on both. Couldn't
be age, though... nuh-uh...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ACL injuries usually from twisting
and/or sudden changes in direction? I wouldn't think that that would be
very common from fencing, even if the knee wasn't getting a workout in
that direction (sympathies to those who have suffered it though).

-Ed Ploy

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ACL injuries usually from twisting
> and/or sudden changes in direction? I wouldn't think that that would be
> very common from fencing, even if the knee wasn't getting a workout in
> that direction (sympathies to those who have suffered it though).
>
> -Ed Ploy

Best way to tear your ACL is to plant your foot and then have someone kick
the side of your knee. You stress the muscles and ligaments until they fail,
often taking the PCL with them, as it suddenly takes all the load.

Best to not try this at home, however. The best orthopedic surgery is the
one you don't have.

-Bill

"Amy & Joseph Kormann" <ajkormann@monmouth.com> wrote in message
news:bgf0ud$nb0$2@news.monmouth.com
>
> The 'angle of the knee' comment bubbled up a thought -- Is it possible
> since fencing is such a linear sport that the sides of the knee get
> less of a work-out and are more prone to stress related damage (ACL
> tears for example).

I don't think so. I started fencing in the first place after having
completely torn my ACL in another sport. Even after complete
reconstruction, I couldn't pursue that sport any more, but I found that
fencing gave my knee no problem at all -- in fact, it vastly improved
the strength and stability of the knee. That was my front knee, so
things may be different with the back knee. I don't think it would be
primarily the ACL that would take stress, though.

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

I need to clarify. I was not saying that fencing is a cause of torn ACL.
I was musing on how fencing doesn't appear to put strain on the knee in
such a way that would normally cause a torn ACL. And because of this
exercise in the non-ACL tear plane, it puts the fencer at risk for
getting a torn ACL in another sport. The planeral muscles are strong,
but the lateral muscles / tendons are not.

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

A friend of mine tore his MCL (I think, I know it wasn't the ACL) in
epee when his opponent stepped on his foot as he was twisting to
infight.

Another tore his ACL when he was retreating and stepped on the reel.

--Delia

"Wolf" <bussone@vt.edu> wrote in message news:<PGydnSPLaYhe0LaiXTWJkw@giganews.com>...
> > Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ACL injuries usually from twisting
> > and/or sudden changes in direction? I wouldn't think that that would be
> > very common from fencing, even if the knee wasn't getting a workout in
> > that direction (sympathies to those who have suffered it though).
> >
> > -Ed Ploy
>
> Best way to tear your ACL is to plant your foot and then have someone kick
> the side of your knee. You stress the muscles and ligaments until they fail,
> often taking the PCL with them, as it suddenly takes all the load.
>
> Best to not try this at home, however. The best orthopedic surgery is the
> one you don't have.
>
> -Bill

Delia M. Turner wrote:

>This has been argued to death. Most of us aren't all that interested
>in it any more. I'd be more interested in a thread about whether, for
>instance, fencing was comparable to auto racing. Or golf. Or
>literary analysis. Or grocery shopping.
>
>
>--Delia
>

Maybe not grocery shopping - but definitely HoLiday Shopping! Now
there's a sport worth comparing! Foil fencers probably are the
comparison shoppers (simply because foilists are always defending their
choice of weapon to the epee and sabre fencers). Sabre fencers are the
first ones into the fray - the early ones to the sales - and the ones
hacking and slashing their way through the other shoppers to get that
"special toy." And epee fencers are probably the catalog and online
shoppers - you know, the last minute shoppers that forgot the date and
are just getting into the swing of things on Christmas Eve.....

Now THAT's something worth discussing! ;-)

Brenda

That would probably get fencing on TV more though!

"Amy & Joseph Kormann" <ajkormann@monmouth.com> wrote in message
news:bgf0pe$nb0$1@news.monmouth.com...
> I've never seen a fencer burst into flame after hitting the side of the
> piste...
>
> --
> Amy and Joseph Kormann
>

"Trim Plus Expert" <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote in message
news:8TuWa.714$Ji1.153715@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Hi all,
> I think it would be an intersting topic to discus!
> What i mean is, the technique used in today modern sport fencing are still
> realistic in face of what fencing used to be in the terms of duelling.
> I let you all argue a little bit about this !

I don't have a fencing background but I have met a couple of sport fencers
who do 'historical fence'.

The main problem I think is mind set, sport fencers seem to think that
taking risks in an attack so taking the odd 'hit' is acceptable practice,
the rest is essentially learning a different way to stand and move, and of
course, the increased weight of the weapons.

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three

About half of the movie "Bull Durham", in which they superficially
appear to be talking about baseball, sounds to me like good instructions
for fencers. So maybe fencing is comparable to baseball.

Joe

"Delia M. Turner" wrote:
>
> This has been argued to death. Most of us aren't all that interested
> in it any more. I'd be more interested in a thread about whether, for
> instance, fencing was comparable to auto racing. Or golf. Or
> literary analysis. Or grocery shopping.
>

This has potential... So what's the fencing equivalent to a well-executed
heel-and-toe downshift? (I can think of several equivalents to a
badly-executed one... like how I tore up my back knee a couple of years
ago!).

Jim (erstwhile epeeist, and mad "M Coupe"ist)

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebee@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:slrnbilhn9.tse.zebee@zeus.zipworld.com.au...
> In rec.sport.fencing on 1 Aug 2003 10:06:26 -0700
> Delia M. Turner <dmturner@dmturner.org> wrote:
> > This has been argued to death. Most of us aren't all that interested
> > in it any more. I'd be more interested in a thread about whether, for
> > instance, fencing was comparable to auto racing. Or golf. Or
> > literary analysis. Or grocery shopping.
> >
>
> Hmmm. car racing. Well... the footwork in car racing is equally
> important, but I don't know the angle of the knee is as vital, and the
> distance between the feet is very easy to keep exactly the same. Racing
> car drivers do seem to attack on the pass, a thing sport fencers no
> longer do, and many historical fencers have trouble with. There is
> often body-to-body contact in car racing, but like fencing, it's
> not allowed in the rules except for certain variant rulesets which
> aren't in common use but some folk really go for them.
>
> The injury rate in car racing is probably similar, althoug the injuries
> tend to be greater - fewer knee reconstructions, more broken bones.
>
> Fencing's cheaper than car racing, but car racing gets more spectators.
>
> Both have to have special clothing to compete, but people who just do it
> for fun rather than at formal competitions often just do it in whatever
> clothing they have at hand.
>
> Fencing blades break reasonably often, but so do car motors.
>
> So looks like car racing and fencing are pretty similar!
>
> Zebee

Epee fencers are those bizarre people who buy things all year long
when they see them -- "Oh, this would be perfect for Aunt Edna, for
Christmas," they say, when in July they happen across a stuffed emu on
sale. Sabre fencers are the ones who do it all on Christmas Eve.
Foilists are the ones who wrap everything perfectly so you feel like
you are destroying something while you're tearing the paper and
pulling off the ribbons.

--Delia

"Robert O. Waddoups" <waddoups@airmail.net> wrote in message news:<bggto2$5pi@library1.airnews.net>...

> Maybe not grocery shopping - but definitely HoLiday Shopping! Now
> there's a sport worth comparing! Foil fencers probably are the
> comparison shoppers (simply because foilists are always defending their
> choice of weapon to the epee and sabre fencers). Sabre fencers are the
> first ones into the fray - the early ones to the sales - and the ones
> hacking and slashing their way through the other shoppers to get that
> "special toy." And epee fencers are probably the catalog and online
> shoppers - you know, the last minute shoppers that forgot the date and
> are just getting into the swing of things on Christmas Eve.....
>
> Now THAT's something worth discussing! ;-)
>
> Brenda
>
> --

On 5 Aug 2003 06:01:50 -0700, dmturner@dmturner.org (Delia M. Turner)
wrote:

> Epee fencers are those bizarre people who buy things all year long
> when they see them -- "Oh, this would be perfect for Aunt Edna, for
> Christmas," they say, when in July they happen across a stuffed emu on
> sale. Sabre fencers are the ones who do it all on Christmas Eve.
> Foilists are the ones who wrap everything perfectly so you feel like
> you are destroying something while you're tearing the paper and
> pulling off the ribbons.

What does that make the referees - salesmen?

-Mark-