Help on calling this action

[Pho]

Hey guys,

Got a quick question, we have a fencer who likes to make an advance-lunge attack with a punching motion. He begins by extending his arm and then withdrawing it back just as he begins his lunge and punching it out as he finishes. If the other fencer makes a straight lunge into him while he is withdrawing his arm, does my punch happy fencer surrender his ROW?

[darius]

As always, the caveat is that without seeing the action exactly, it's hard to judge the timing.

But, if the hit arrives before the punch-happy fencer's arm resumes its forward motion, it's attack into preparation.

It's easy to fix, though -- a strong extension is good, but to avoid the parry, the fencer should keep their hand out and make a coupe or disengage with their fingers.

Are you going to NYS Champs in 2 weeks?

darius

[Pho]

Yeah, I am going to be there (epee and foil), along with Wunny and possibly Dreyer.

The fencer in question as you might have guessed is Wunny and we have been trying to get him not to do that punching motion, but it seems ingrained into him (most people attempt to parry his attack but we have some who launch into a lunge the minute he begins his advance). That being said, with an attack into preparation (assuming that the actions starts just as he begins withdrawing), does the opponent have to touch him before he resumes his forward arm motion? It seems to me that the action should be called attack no, counter attack yes, rather than attack into preparation since it is dependent on touching him before he begins his forward arm motion, almost as if the regular conventions of an attack (he doesn't have to parry, just make sure he begins extending before he gets touched). Any help would be appreciated since we are trying to tighten his timing with his favourite attack.

Eric

[neevel]

Yes, but the lunge has to be initiated while the arm is still in the process of pulling pack. As soon as the arm starts forward again, priority is re-established and the other fencer's action would then be a counterrattack (a preparation once is not a preparation forever). Correctly timing the attack into such a preparation is often easier said than done, especially when the person attempting the a-i-p is retreating and has to reverse direction and/or shift from making parries to extending the arm.

While beginners often make such a pumping action prior to the lunge unconsciously (and as such it is a mistake), a withdrawal of the arm in the course of the attack can be part of a legitimate tactic known as a "broken-tempo" attack. Basically, you initiate an offensive action and get your opponent retreating and trying to find your blade with a parry, and then make a visible but brief preparation. The desired effect is to momentarily "freeze" your opponent when they see the withdrawal and suddenly have to decide whether to attempt the attack into your preparation or stay on the defensive. The momentary pause can give you the opening you need to finish the attack. Even if they do try to catch you in your preparation, by the time they've stopped looking for the parry, made the decision, and then gotten their action going, you've already retaken the attack. You'll need to assess whether this particular fencer is doing it unthinkingly, or as a deliberate tactic.

Since foil refereeing standards (I'm right that this is foil?) don't give the benefit of the doubt to attempts at attacking into very brief preparations, I wouldn't advise making it your standard tactic to lunge into every momentary withdrawal of an attacker's blade. One option would be to put out a feint of an a-i-p or counterattack to draw the finish of the attack, and then (combined with an appropriately timed and sized distance break) parry and riposte. Even if you do actually go for the a-i-p, making it quickly and then immediately recovering back to a good parry position will act as an insurance policy in case you miss or the referee doesn't see your action as in-time.

For sabre, tempos are called much tighter than in foil, and attacking into brief preparations is a more viable tactic.

-Dave

[Wizardly]

AIP is going to be tough with a "forward motion is an attack" referee (this people need to be found and reeducated).

Yes, withdrawl of the arm is a preparation. An attack into this preparation has priority - it does not need to hit during the withdrawl, merely begin during the withdrawl. The reextension of the arm signifies the new attack. An attack by the opponent begun here is a counter-attack.

If this is a chronic action, an observant opponent will quickly figure out when this arm-pumping attack will occur and simply attack into the first extension.

How's Wunny's point control during this action?

Personally, I can't stand people who punch with a weapon. Evangelista's complaints about the flick fall on def ears with me; a punching extension is far more violent and dangerous. The worst a flick ever did was give me a bruise, it never drew blood.

[three_hundred_fifty_five]

A good director will notice that he is pulling his arm back and will take away his right-of-way, unless his opponent doesn't take advantage of it. He regains right-of-way on his second extension if the opponent does nothing.

[Talyn]

Yup, I think everyones leading at the same thing, its all about split second timing

[Pho]

Sounds like a case of leaving it alone since it seems that too many things can go wrong (unless you want to show off). Heh

Eric