Training for Veterans

[Delia M. Turner]

Recently a r.s.f member asked the question, "How long does it take to
recuperate from an injury or operation when you're a veteran fencer?"
I'd add, "How do veterans (40-49, 50-59, 60+) train differently from
fencers of other ages?" I'm going to look around and find what I can
about the subject.

So:

Any personal experience/wisdom you'd care to share?
Any sources of information (Internet, books, physicians, programs)
you'd recommend?

I'll start:

Training: I know that for me, in my 50s, rest is the most important
part of my training cycle and the one I'm most tempted to skip. My job
is demanding, my family responsibilities are taxing, and stress is
part of the deal. Right now, because I'm on vacation (I'm a teacher),
I can do the weight machines at my club twice a week, fence four days
a week (twice at a different club than the one I normally attend), and
do fairly strenuous aerobic work three or four days a week, because I
can rest much of the day. During my work year, I am lucky if I get to
fence twice a week (3-4 hours) and compete on weekends, and any
weights or aerobic work are shoved in before or between. As many of
you know, I avoid training that stresses my joints excessively, and I
train not to be fast but to be smart with good timing and distance.

Training to finish in the top four of the I-A in 2001, I achieved my
goal, but at the expense of my back foot (plantar fascitis,
sesamoiditis, bruised cuneiform bone), and got orthotics and physical
therapy; then I developed sciatica or something similar and went to an
orthopedist and then got physical therapy; now I'm dealing with a
flare-up of bursitis in my shoulder, for which I didn't go to the
doctor or the physical therapist but started a new program of
therapeutic weights. I don't have knee or elbow problems any more,
because I corrected the form problems that caused those injuries.

Doctors and physical therapists have been pretty helpful but trainers
often give me advice based on what a 16-year-old boy can do.


--Delia

[Jonathan Jefferies]

Delia M. Turner wrote:
> Recently a r.s.f member asked the question, "How long does it take to
> recuperate from an injury or operation when you're a veteran fencer?"
> I'd add, "How do veterans (40-49, 50-59, 60+) train differently from
> fencers of other ages?" I'm going to look around and find what I can
> about the subject.
>

Excellent suggestion Delia, speaking of my experiences in the ages
54-59 the times have been like this:
InjuriesI'm speaking of not just a short strain but an something which
is aggravated), 3 weeks -6 months of down time. All of mine have been
elbow or shoulder related.
Surgery: elbow, 1+ years and still it is weak.
So it behooves me to try and fence smart.

Things I have found which "SEEM" to help:
physical therapy: almost as good as a personal trainer. Slow Methodical
way to gain back and hopefully restore. (For any in the San Francisco
East Bay area I have a physical therapist who is also a fencer and
has been trying to adapt her programs to something more specialized
for fencers).
Acupuncture: Can be very helpful, usually takes at least 3 visits to
determine although I have seen dramatic results in a single visit.
Deep tissue massage: I've found this to be particularly helpful when
combined with other techniques phys therapy/acupuncture/
chiropractic.
Chiropractic: Not as much success but if combined with deep tissue
massage can be quite helpful.
Acupressure: a technique that can be very useful at home when you
can't get an appointment to see a proper medical person. There is
a book by Bonnie Pruden "Pain Erasure"-I believe- that gives details
on various acupressure techniques.

Drugs: ( I generally stay away from these but)
Glucosomine (with or without Chondroitin): in general useful in a
maintenance program and in common use among veteran fencers
for aiding the joints - my case knees.
How can you tell if it's doing you
any good? Take it for 3-4 weeks and then stop for a couple of days.
Ibuprofen: takes the edge off of pain. There is a continuing debate as
to its usefulness in reducing inflammation (the usual result of an
aggravated injury). When I use it I am usually going for
anti-inflammatory relief and take anywhere from 8 - 12 of the 200 mg
tablets a day. I've been told this is reasonable until/unless it
starts giving you stomach problems. But I don't stay on it for more
than a few weeks or so at a time.
Arnica - a homeopathic remedy for pain that has been recommended to me
as working well in combination with ibuprofen. I found it useful
to help hold pain at bay when I went into a tournament with an
existing problem. Maybe the placebo effect?

Just an aside, I have found that both conventional and non conventional
(acupuncture,chiropractic, deep tissue massage) therapies to be helpful
at various times. But nothing seems to work all the time. So my approach
now is to pick the last thing that worked and try it and then if I
don't have a fix to move on to the next thing in the list. I have a
predilection for deep tissue massage. If it don't heal it at least feels
good and reducing the pain and feeling better are key in any case.


Training, Delia is right on about coaches trying to work you like you
are a 16 year old boy. It does one good to try but a major requirement
for a veteran is to know when to say NO and make it stick. When I was
fencing 4-5 nights a week and trying to train I don't believe I was
giving myself enough time to fully recuperate. So I've tried to back
off to 3 - 4 nights a week. I do daily training - actually just stopped
this morning to check my e-mail and started typing in this post.
Something that I've recently become more aware of it breaking training
into muscle groups and hand/eye coordination.

1. I try to do some hand/eye coordination work each day. This consists
of lunges and blade work on my dummy. Three or so sets of 10 each
of short, intermediate, and long lunges against the dummy at various
times during the day.
2. Daily 2 sets of footwork 6 minutes at a time with 1 minute rest
between. In ramping up to a major tournament I will increase this
to whatever I can sustain my interest to. I try to include fleching
as part of the foot work.(done to music, currently "tainted love" and
the "theme from the Sopranos")
3. I try to alternate work on the arm as distinct from work on the lower
body/legs on different days. This has to do with my still trying to
recover full functionality of the elbow after the surgery last year.
And from my readings, weight trainers recommend working a particular
muscle group hard and then resting it for a day. They conjecture that
working the muscle hard causes small micro tears which need time to
heal and rebuild and this in turn gives rise to building up the
muscle. Sounds good anyway to a lazy fellow like me who was trying
to do a major workout every day. For leg work I do my usual 2 six
minute sessions and then skip rope and a number of wind
sprints. Jogging seems to be more for endurance running, whereas
fencing is short, and more like intense sprints.
4. Stretches: VERY IMPORTANT. Didn't mean to leave it to the last, but
stretching very necessary, legs, ankles, back, arms, neck.
5. Pilates: a very in technique advocated by dancers originally
designed for boxers. Sounds really neat but uses a bunch of
specialized machines sort of like the things folks try to sell you
on late night tv. If you can separate out the chaff and hype there
may be something there.

I'll probably think of more things later. I left out describing my arm
work as that is dependent on weights, therabands, rubber hoses and is
very masochistic.

J.

[Delia M. Turner]

Wow! Great stuff! This is very informative. Anybody else have any
other suggestions/experience/advice?

--Delia

Jonathan Jefferies <jonathanjefferies@alamedanet.net> wrote in message news:<3F1D782D.4010800@alamedanet.net>...
> Excellent suggestion Delia, speaking of my experiences in the ages
> 54-59 the times have been like this:
<extended snip>

[Jonathan Jefferies]

Ooh, And ICE. How could I forget ice?? Memory yeah, the second thing to
go.
ANY INJURY/strain but particularly joints, ICE it ASAP. Stops/slows
down the inflammation process. But hey you guys already knew that!
right? Ice it as soon as you can and then later heat/warm water
followed by more icing. If it's a chronic problem then invest in
really good ice pack large enough to wrap around your elbow/knee
whatever. If it's a short term (you wish) thing then dixie cups or
disposable cup filled with water and put in the freezer for use.
With an ice pack I wrap the affected joint - elbow, did I mention
the elbow? and let it chill out for 15-20 minutes.
I tried rubbing ice directly onto the affected area but the
dribbles of water everywhere was such a mess.
Then allow the joint/muscle to warm up slowly.
Alternating ice, heat, ice is highly recommended. ICE FIRST!
J.

Jonathan Jefferies wrote:
> Delia M. Turner wrote:
>
>> Recently a r.s.f member asked the question, "How long does it take to
>> recuperate from an injury or operation when you're a veteran fencer?"
>> I'd add, "How do veterans (40-49, 50-59, 60+) train differently from
>> fencers of other ages?" I'm going to look around and find what I can
>> about the subject.
>>
>
> Excellent suggestion Delia, speaking of my experiences in the ages
> 54-59 the times have been like this:
> InjuriesI'm speaking of not just a short strain but an something which
> is aggravated), 3 weeks -6 months of down time. All of mine have been
> elbow or shoulder related.
> Surgery: elbow, 1+ years and still it is weak.
> So it behooves me to try and fence smart.
>
> Things I have found which "SEEM" to help:
> physical therapy: almost as good as a personal trainer. Slow Methodical
> way to gain back and hopefully restore. (For any in the San Francisco
> East Bay area I have a physical therapist who is also a fencer and
> has been trying to adapt her programs to something more specialized
> for fencers).
> Acupuncture: Can be very helpful, usually takes at least 3 visits to
> determine although I have seen dramatic results in a single visit.
> Deep tissue massage: I've found this to be particularly helpful when
> combined with other techniques phys therapy/acupuncture/
> chiropractic.
> Chiropractic: Not as much success but if combined with deep tissue
> massage can be quite helpful.
> Acupressure: a technique that can be very useful at home when you
> can't get an appointment to see a proper medical person. There is
> a book by Bonnie Pruden "Pain Erasure"-I believe- that gives details
> on various acupressure techniques.
>
> Drugs: ( I generally stay away from these but)
> Glucosomine (with or without Chondroitin): in general useful in a
> maintenance program and in common use among veteran fencers
> for aiding the joints - my case knees.
> How can you tell if it's doing you
> any good? Take it for 3-4 weeks and then stop for a couple of days.
> Ibuprofen: takes the edge off of pain. There is a continuing debate as
> to its usefulness in reducing inflammation (the usual result of an
> aggravated injury). When I use it I am usually going for
> anti-inflammatory relief and take anywhere from 8 - 12 of the 200 mg
> tablets a day. I've been told this is reasonable until/unless it
> starts giving you stomach problems. But I don't stay on it for more
> than a few weeks or so at a time.
> Arnica - a homeopathic remedy for pain that has been recommended to me
> as working well in combination with ibuprofen. I found it useful
> to help hold pain at bay when I went into a tournament with an
> existing problem. Maybe the placebo effect?
>
> Just an aside, I have found that both conventional and non conventional
> (acupuncture,chiropractic, deep tissue massage) therapies to be helpful
> at various times. But nothing seems to work all the time. So my approach
> now is to pick the last thing that worked and try it and then if I
> don't have a fix to move on to the next thing in the list. I have a
> predilection for deep tissue massage. If it don't heal it at least feels
> good and reducing the pain and feeling better are key in any case.
>
>
> Training, Delia is right on about coaches trying to work you like you
> are a 16 year old boy. It does one good to try but a major requirement
> for a veteran is to know when to say NO and make it stick. When I was
> fencing 4-5 nights a week and trying to train I don't believe I was
> giving myself enough time to fully recuperate. So I've tried to back
> off to 3 - 4 nights a week. I do daily training - actually just stopped
> this morning to check my e-mail and started typing in this post.
> Something that I've recently become more aware of it breaking training
> into muscle groups and hand/eye coordination.
>
> 1. I try to do some hand/eye coordination work each day. This consists
> of lunges and blade work on my dummy. Three or so sets of 10 each
> of short, intermediate, and long lunges against the dummy at various
> times during the day.
> 2. Daily 2 sets of footwork 6 minutes at a time with 1 minute rest
> between. In ramping up to a major tournament I will increase this
> to whatever I can sustain my interest to. I try to include fleching
> as part of the foot work.(done to music, currently "tainted love" and
> the "theme from the Sopranos")
> 3. I try to alternate work on the arm as distinct from work on the lower
> body/legs on different days. This has to do with my still trying to
> recover full functionality of the elbow after the surgery last year.
> And from my readings, weight trainers recommend working a particular
> muscle group hard and then resting it for a day. They conjecture that
> working the muscle hard causes small micro tears which need time to
> heal and rebuild and this in turn gives rise to building up the
> muscle. Sounds good anyway to a lazy fellow like me who was trying
> to do a major workout every day. For leg work I do my usual 2 six
> minute sessions and then skip rope and a number of wind
> sprints. Jogging seems to be more for endurance running, whereas
> fencing is short, and more like intense sprints.
> 4. Stretches: VERY IMPORTANT. Didn't mean to leave it to the last, but
> stretching very necessary, legs, ankles, back, arms, neck.
> 5. Pilates: a very in technique advocated by dancers originally
> designed for boxers. Sounds really neat but uses a bunch of
> specialized machines sort of like the things folks try to sell you
> on late night tv. If you can separate out the chaff and hype there
> may be something there.
>
> I'll probably think of more things later. I left out describing my arm
> work as that is dependent on weights, therabands, rubber hoses and is
> very masochistic.
>
> J.
>

[Joe Hoffman]

I'm just a cadet veteran, pulling 40, so I'll take a contrarian
position befitting my insolent youth.

I no longer do cross-training, weightlifting, running, or anything
else. I don't even stretch much, any more. And since I stopped,
I feel much better. The tendonitis in shoulder is gone. I don't
have to wear neoprene braces on my knees any more.

What I do: I lead footwork exercises for my beginners and sophomore
classes. That gets me about 20 minutes a week of pure footwork.
I free-fence with teenagers and former Marines. That gets me
a couple of hours of hard fencing. And, most important, I have a
coach who's teaching me how to win bouts without exhausting myself.
This is a big change -- my style has always depended on being
bigger and stronger than my opponent, especially when I'm not really.

That's the secret: just don't overdo it.
(The Nike people can sue if they like.)

Joe


"Delia M. Turner" wrote:
>
> Recently a r.s.f member asked the question, "How long does it take to
> recuperate from an injury or operation when you're a veteran fencer?"
> I'd add, "How do veterans (40-49, 50-59, 60+) train differently from
> fencers of other ages?" I'm going to look around and find what I can
> about the subject.
>

[Delia M. Turner]

<snicker> That's lovely, can I quote you?

Actually, I've had the same results from the opposite--since I started
working out for the last three months at a health club which
emphasizes moderation (weights are twice a week, one set, and most of
the clientele is my age), my shoulder bursitis has waned considerably,
my sciatica has eased off, and my footwork has gotten much more
controlled. Maybe the idea is, whatever you've been doing, do
something else?

--Delia

Joe Hoffman <jhoffman@patriot.net> wrote in message news:<3F20551E.C983EBF2@patriot.net>...
> I'm just a cadet veteran, pulling 40, so I'll take a contrarian
> position befitting my insolent youth.
>
> I no longer do cross-training, weightlifting, running, or anything
> else. I don't even stretch much, any more. And since I stopped,
> I feel much better. The tendonitis in shoulder is gone. I don't
> have to wear neoprene braces on my knees any more.
>
> What I do: I lead footwork exercises for my beginners and sophomore
> classes. That gets me about 20 minutes a week of pure footwork.
> I free-fence with teenagers and former Marines. That gets me
> a couple of hours of hard fencing. And, most important, I have a
> coach who's teaching me how to win bouts without exhausting myself.
> This is a big change -- my style has always depended on being
> bigger and stronger than my opponent, especially when I'm not really.
>
> That's the secret: just don't overdo it.
> (The Nike people can sue if they like.)
>
> Joe
>

[Remise]

Maybe the idea is, whatever you've been doing, do something else?
=======
This is sort of my motto for life in general, in keeping with the well-known
philosophy of Alice Roosevelt Longworth, who when once asked for her secret of
success, said, "Open all closed doors, close all open doors, and scratch where
it itches."

B.C. Milligan

[David Neevel]

Jonathan Jefferies wrote:

> Ooh, And ICE. How could I forget ice?? Memory yeah, the second thing to
> go.
> ANY INJURY/strain but particularly joints, ICE it ASAP. Stops/slows
> down the inflammation process. But hey you guys already knew that!
> right? Ice it as soon as you can and then later heat/warm water
> followed by more icing. If it's a chronic problem then invest in
> really good ice pack large enough to wrap around your elbow/knee
> whatever. If it's a short term (you wish) thing then dixie cups or
> disposable cup filled with water and put in the freezer for use.
> With an ice pack I wrap the affected joint - elbow, did I mention
> the elbow? and let it chill out for 15-20 minutes.
> I tried rubbing ice directly onto the affected area but the
> dribbles of water everywhere was such a mess.
> Then allow the joint/muscle to warm up slowly.
> Alternating ice, heat, ice is highly recommended. ICE FIRST!
> J.
>

Sage advice. An initial ice-heat-ice cycle, then resting the affected joint
for a few hours (along with ample
ibuprofen), followed by another icing can work well.

Then, of course, there's the final stage icing: place the ice in a glass,
cover with 6 parts gin to 1 part
vermouth, garnish with olives, and apply internally. :-)

-Dave

[Joe Hoffman]

Absolutely. I was talking to John Moreau before Div 1 Epee in Austin
(back before he was national champion). The topic was related --
John's in better physical condition than pretty much anyone I know, so
I was quizzing him on the question of whether his whole body aches
the day after a tournament (like mine does).

He said no, it hits him about two days later. Then he mentioned that
he wasn't training much lately, and was getting out of shape. He
needed to get back to swimming 3,000 meters a day. 12 hours later,
he had beaten all the best fencers America has.

So there's the secret to winning at the elite level: Stop swimming
3,000 meters a day!

Joe


"Delia M. Turner" wrote:
> Maybe the idea is, whatever you've been doing, do something else?
>

[Delia M. Turner]

Joe Hoffman <jhoffman@patriot.net> wrote in message news:<3F21E86D.66E91A34@patriot.net>...
> So there's the secret to winning at the elite level: Stop swimming
> 3,000 meters a day!

Wouldn't that mean I'd have to START swimming 3,000 meters a day
before I could STOP?

My secret for doing well at Nationals, actually, was to train hard for
months and then turn into a couch potato for a solid week before my
events. No weights, no aerobic, no fencing. And I didn't have to
visit the trainer once in Austin, except to say hi, so it must have
worked.

[Jonathan Jefferies]

My first coach takes the same approach of training hard up to the week
of the tournament and then backing off to just simple warm-ups, stretches
etc. and he made it to #1 in vet-50 men's foil a couple of years ago.

My own feeling is that for major events it makes sense to back off the
week before when you wouldn't have time to recover if you should hurt
yourself in training.

I believe this applies to major events, national and international, as
opposed to a local event.

J.

Delia M. Turner wrote:
>:
:
:
>
> My secret for doing well at Nationals, actually, was to train hard for
> months and then turn into a couch potato for a solid week before my
> events. No weights, no aerobic, no fencing. And I didn't have to
> visit the trainer once in Austin, except to say hi, so it must have
> worked.

[Mizore]

I'm fencing with a small club outside Tokyo. I am fortunate because most of the fencers are either veterans or in their late 30's so much of the training I receive is matched for my age (41) and ability. A second club I attend twice a week is a lot harder work out with both younger and older fencers and effects me quite differently.

I haven't been very active for years, but I was an ice skater and roller blader. Living in Tokyo I walk A LOT and often up and down stairs. So my legs are quite strong but a bit tight and subject to feeling strained easily. Even with proper stretching.

I find that I am sore about 2 days after fencing, but a couple things seem to help so I'd like to share them.

1. Nice long bath: After fencing I take a nice hot bath and then stretch my muscles a little before bed. Every time I have done this there is no soreness two days later. When I skip the bath I feel like a post train wreck body two days later.

2. Medicated Pads: I don't know what the medication is called, but these are common here. A mild medicated pad on my shoulder and wrist(my wrist is a big weak from carpal and ulnar tunnel surgery a few years ago) and both feel fine the days after. Again, when I skip this I feel a significant difference.

My primary coach is in his 70's, as graceful as a lead ballet dancer and fast enough to startle and defeat opponents 20% of his age. He also swears by warm baths, stretches before bed and pads. But his secret seems to be in moderating his activities. He takes and gives frequent breaks. Repeats key exercises to build strength and endurance. And he keeps me confident that at 41 I still have 30 years of fencing ahead of me and time to improve.

Thanks everyone for the wonderful tips. I hope these help too.

Cheers,
Mizore

[Downtown]

I have nothing to add but my thanks for the info. As someone who started fencing when they were 51, I am hungry for information related to Veterans.

Thanks again to all.

Jim

(Anything worth doing is worth doing to obsession. )

[Coup de Grace]

Peach,

This is great! Have you considered writing an article and posting here or sending to American Fencing? I think there is a veteran audience out there that would be greatly appreciative.

CdG

[fencerbill]

I suggest that the moderators of this circus set aside a heading aimed at Veteran fencers so we won't have to search all over the block to exchange information amongst ourselves. I have also checked out other similar web sites, one in England and one in Ireland. The Irish site does have a heading for Veteran fencers but no one has answered a post I put on in September.

I have a Ukrainian coach who is a strong proponent of almost nothing the week before a big event, just moderate walking. And for anyone who hasn't figured out who Fencerbill is, it resulted in three World medals. He gives me hour long lessons when I am in good enough shape to take them. But it is not just running me back and forth until my tongue hangs out. He alternates leg work and hand work in cycles. He is very strong on form so that soaks up a lot of the time.

Another scheme of his. The day of the event he advocates a triple cycle of warmup. The early one is just to warm up the muscles and get me breathing a little. A little jogging (a very little jogging lately), footwork and some lunges-no opponent. Then a break. The second cycle is with an opponent. I am not much for drills but there are some who are. Bill Goering was, for one, and also Larry Pinkus, both of whom have had some success. This is to get into the fencing and is a light to medium workout by itself. After a break, another light workout with other fencers with more bouting this time, finishing around 15 minutes before the event starts. These warmups are not to just get touches but to get you into the cycle of thinking of the strategy that the coach wants you to use. The full spectrum of attacks, false attacks, hesitation-fast attacks, retreat work with parry ripostes, stop cuts and attacks on preparation. (Sounds so sophisticated, but anyone who has seen me fence knows this last part was a little BS.)

I have been known to be a slow starter. In fact, I attribute a lot of my success to just being in better physical shape than my opponents. They started losing their energy while I could still keep my momentum up. I have won a lot of 5-4's and 10-9's.

My best year was 2002. I was fencing four nights a week, had two one-hour lessons, was doing light dumbbells (10 pounds) three times a week and walking 4-5 times a week. We have a park nearby about half a mile away with a one mile circuit. I would walk over as a warmup, then time myself twice around, and walk home slowly as a cool down. I would go as fast as I could one day then slower the next time. My best times were down around 24 minutes for the two miles.

I am a strong proponent of a hot shower very soon after exercise. It really helps me avoid stiffness when I can get one. Also why I am pushing for showers where my club is now, we used to have them.

Another thing that has helped is rubbing my knees and sore muscles with a sports cream containing salycilates (aspirin). It really helps me to get to sleep after a good fencing workout. You are not getting too much but you are getting it right where it will help.

But unfortunately, I have started breaking down from the full cycle of this amount of exertion and just haven't been able to keep it up. Funny how it happened just around my 70th birthday.

How about a poll to see if the web site should have a Veterans Fencing section?

[Peach]

Nice post - and I assume you mean a section in fencing.net? Because this is in good old r.s.f., for which the website has a section.

[Coup de Grace]

Ah!... yes. Sorry about. It was my first time in the RSF. These are execellent suggestions.