"Dropping, Throwing, Bowling wth a Mask

[Mo]

In WS I see masks dropped, thrown or bowled as often as not. Why is it not called?? It is NEVER CALLED!!
(Feel free to include your favorite or most outrageous mask throwing experience.)

[whtouche]

Dropping, throwing, or 'bowling' ones mask is not against the rules and not explicitely a cardable offense.
The black card often associated with using ones mask in such a way is due to unsportsmanlike conduct, and has nothing specifically to do with the mask.

As far as if the fencer is being 'unsportsmanlike' and still not being called - shrug. Perhaps directors are just showing leniency, a black card is obviously a very serious thing and perhaps these directors don't feel comfortable throwing them around.
Also perhaps the directors are giving them more slack for being female, since you did mention WOMENS sabrists. Stereotypically it's more expected for a female to go into such moods.

disclaimer: Don't shoot the messenger, I'm not claiming or proclaiming the factuality of these stereotypes please don't jump on me and call em a chauvenist I'm just trying to throw ideas out there and further the discussion of the matter at hand so that we might all better understand that, that is afterall the point of discussion thank you.

[three_hundred_fifty_five]

It's unsportsman-like conduct but it's the director's call what is unsportsman-like. Looks like fencing is becoming less of a gentleman's sport than tennis.

[Peach]

Once, when eliminated in an event by a fencer I knew I should have beaten, I restrained my urge to throw my mask. I held on to my temper until I got out of the building, and then threw it as hard as I could . . . and it rolled into a patch of poison ivy.

[Peach]

Originally posted by whtouche
(snip)
disclaimer: Don't shoot the messenger, I'm not claiming or proclaiming the factuality of these stereotypes please don't jump on me and call em a chauvenist I'm just trying to throw ideas out there and further the discussion of the matter at hand so that we might all better understand that, that is afterall the point of discussion thank you.

I suggest you either say it or don't say it, but don't say it and then say it's just a thing you said. It gets too complicated.

[CarlKnoch]

My personal thought for why it's not called is simple. No cojones on the part of the director.

The real question is why are they acting unsportsmanlike in the first place? Anyone who throws a mask, weapon, storms off the strip, etc , should take up a different sport.

[rukovsoft]

hey guys it s easier than it looks:

- you drop the mask on the strip (kinda realase it on the strip)...it can be nothing or a yellow.
- throw the masl on the floor: red (FOR VIOLENT ACT T87,)( black if the referee really thinks it s unsportmanship, also art 87...it s kinda up to the ref)
-the fencer throws the mask violently on the strip or shoot at the mask or throw it at somebody: 100% of time it s a BLACK card...
it can ruin the strip or injure somebody. and it s definitely unsportmanship...

if the ref really associate the mask throwing with unsportmanship in a special case...then the fencer should be directly BLACK carded

[Talyn]

IMHO

The ref doesn't do much because its not a really big offense.

Unless it actually hurts someone or something major like that it's usually allowed to pass.

The fencing world isn't that big... imagine if you were the ref and u game someone a card for dropping their mask... Its not a good reputation to have.

[CarlKnoch]

Originally posted by Talyn
IMHO

The ref doesn't do much because its not a really big offense.

Unless it actually hurts someone or something major like that it's usually allowed to pass.

The fencing world isn't that big... imagine if you were the ref and u game someone a card for dropping their mask... Its not a good reputation to have.

I agree that sometimes dropping a mask is just that, and nothing bad about it if there was no intent to be unsportsmanlike. However, if the intent was the throw a fit on the strip because they just lost a touch or lost the bout, then it is a big offense in my opinion. It detracts from the sport as it's showing that while we strive to be in control on the strip, controlling our responses, our actions, we can't control our temper.

[R. Exnicios]

A few years ago we had a fencers lat a tournament with a bit of a temper. He lost his bout and decided to throw his mask. Before he could get carded he thought it was appropriate to kick the reel as well (an old silver Uhlmann). He wasn't around to get carded; He had to go to the hospital with a broken foot.



Also saw a fistfight break out in saber but that was in the days of visual touches. Everyone was black carded!


Cheers

[JEC]

Originally posted by R. Exnicios
Also saw a fistfight break out in saber but that was in the days of visual touches. Everyone was black carded!

Were you too?

[picojeff]

Paolo Milanoli was fencing Pavel Kolobkov at world champs last year. It came to overtime, I believe, or 14-14, at any rate a one-touch-to-win situation. Pavel scored on what looked to me like a lucky touch going forward, and Paolo fell over backward. Before he had even hit the ground, his mask was off and thrown more than the length of a piste. I don't believe it hit anyone or broke anything.

He was immediately black carded. All the Italians of course rushed the referee trying to have the card rescinded, because it means Paolo wouldn't be listed in the results and wouldn't get any points. The ref did have the cojones to stand up to them, and ultimately Paolo didn't get any points for the event, seriously hurting his world ranking. (world champs are add-on points, and double points to boot, so they really affect world ranking)

There was also a question if Paolo would be allowed compete in the team event the next day, since a black card can and sometimes should ban someone from the rest of the tournament, not just the event they were carded in. I guess the Italian federation has enough pull, because he did fence the next day. At one point the Italian team was on a piste next to ours, and Paolo had a cord attached to his mask, linked with a little clip to a cord attached to his jacket -- so he couldn't throw his mask! It was hilarous. A mask cord in epee.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

I especially enjoy the "mask spinners"....those folks who start to throw the mask in a fit of pique, and at the last second pull it back, then spin it like a top along the strip.

My three most interesting mask episodes:

Summer Nats 2002, MS Div 3 round of 16: "Soccer Anyone?" Short-tempered fencer (who has been arguing with ref a good portion of bout) loses on disputed call. Throws mask to floor with great vigor. Ref pulls a red card, tells him to pick up the mask and apologize. Fencer says: "Yeah, right," and kicks mask so hard it bounces past end of strip, thru boundary curtain and rolls across convention center corridor. Fencer turns back to see his red card magically transformed into black.

Junior Men's Epee San Diego 2003: "The Bratton Hat Dance"
Benjamin Bratton is fencing Teddy Sherrill. Both are ripping their masks off and bellowing repeatedly after every single touch. As the vocal display escalates, Bratton begins to shuck his mask, throw it to the floor, and stomp around the mask in a circle, emitting two to four lung-clearing primal screams--between the points, no less. The referee stands there with the same expression as a mule deer at midnight, caught in an 18-wheeler's headlights. No cards or warnings are given, even though fencing has to be repeatedly halted two strips away because other fencers can't hear the director over the noise.

WS gold medal bout, 2003 Summer Nationals: "Aborted Moon Shot" This is the epic mask throw that DIDN'T happen. Fencer is losing to lower seeded opponent by a sizable margin. Shrieks of frustration are mounting. After losing match point, fencer spins around, winds up with a mask backswing that the Williams sisters would envy for depth and power. For a split second, it appears the overhead lights in the Austin Convention Center are in peril. A number of sideline spectators can clearly be heard telling her, "No! Don't throw it!" At the last second, she pulls it back in halfway through the swing and aborts the ballistic launch. NORAD goes off alert, smiles all around.

[R. Exnicios]

Originally posted by JEC
Were you too?

No I was only a spectator in this one. No foil fencer in his right mind would jump into a saber fight.

[DangerMouse]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
WS gold medal bout, 2003 Summer Nationals: "Aborted Moon Shot"

Here's one that did happen. I won't mention any names, but anyone familiar with the teams at the time will know them.

2000 Midwest collegiate qualifiers for NCAA nationals Men's foil. The favorite from Notre Dame (T) is fencing the underdog from Lawrence University (P), my teammate. Both of them have qualified for NCAA nationals the previous 2 years, but this year the Notre Dame team is stronger and there is a fight for the 2 spots. P is having a particularly good day and rather than the hard fought bout the two fencers usually have, P wins handily. T rips off his mask and, still hooked up before shaking hands, sends it flying the length of the gym where it smashes into a wall followed by an echoing F---!!! throughout the gym. This incident was followed by complete silence throughout the gym. All fencing had stopped. T stepped down from the strip and refused to shake hands. He was not carded for this at all.

-DM

[rukovsoft]

following this anecdote...one comment...who was the referee????shame to him/her.
he should have gotten 2 black cards...and be expelled from the competition. throwing the mask violently is a black card. but refusing to shake hands (did he refuse or forget?) is definitely a black card and can lead to a SUSPENSION!!!!

[DangerMouse]

Originally posted by rukovsoft
following this anecdote...one comment...who was the referee????shame to him/her.
he should have gotten 2 black cards...and be expelled from the competition. throwing the mask violently is a black card. but refusing to shake hands (did he refuse or forget?) is definitely a black card and can lead to a SUSPENSION!!!!

College fencing is very political and to avoid offending anyone, particularly the coach of a team that hosts most of the events, the directors and bout committee seem to overlook just about all infractions that don't occur while fencing. At least this is the case in the midwest.

As for the shaking hands, he just walked away from the strip and the director never asked him to shake hands. I don't think he forgot, but he wasn't reminded either. My teammate didn't really care. The reaction to his victory was essentially another victory for him

-DM

[Inquartata]

And people wonder why I think the yelling and general tantrum-throwing has gotten way, way out of hand...

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally posted by whtouche

disclaimer: Don't shoot the messenger, I'm not claiming or proclaiming the factuality of these stereotypes please don't jump on me and call em a chauvenist I'm just trying to throw ideas out there and further the discussion of the matter at hand so that we might all better understand that, that is afterall the point of discussion thank you.

i dont' have a problem with your post... however.... there is a sense of scared urgencey in this disclaimer due to the minimal punctuation... was it on purpose? : )

[pkt]

In the 70s, in the finals for the provincial Championships in Sabre, my maitre was directing me and the one person I had to beat to win the championship.
I did what he taught me. Not just once, but twice.
Twice he called it against me.
I lost the championship by 2 hits. Those 2 hits.
After the bout, I field-goaled my mask to the other side of the gym.

Will never do that again:
1. I had to go get the mask.
2. I had to straighten out my mask.
3. I got no lessons for 3 months.

But boy, my maitre got the msg.

PK