Weight Training

[Indy4ever]

I was on the verge of joining my gym and using their weights when a friend told me that high intensity weight training was not good for your fencing. According to him it does something to muscles so that they stop being 'reacting' muscles (so you stop reacting as fast), and become some kind of other muscle, and once this happens you cant change them back. Now I have no idea what the hell he was talking about but this has struck the fear of God into me, since I am torn between trying to look like Fabio but also trying to make into the third round (for once). I am already slow enough on the uptake, to get slower would be disastrous!

His advice came from someone at a training camp, and since those coaches generally know what they are talking about i thought I would check up with you learned people. He said nothing about low intensity (light weights, lots of reps) so is this okay? Or is he simply talking out of his ***?

[Wizardly]

First off, I'm just going to say that I'm no expert. Having the same fears after hearing the same thing, I've done some reading on the subject so I'll share with you what I've learned as I understand it.

Genetics is the biggest determinant as to what type of muscle you normally have. Working out over a very very long period of time will change the proportion of your muslce composition. Working out builds muslce, however you have only a 10% chance of ever being a Mr. Universe contestant unless you use steroids.

There are 3 types of muscle fibers: I, IIa, and IIb. IIb is the explosive muscle. It's very strong, works very fast (hence the name "fast twitch," but tires out quickly. Type I is endurance muscle, works slower, but lasts longer, also called slow twitch. Type IIb is a hybrid of the two. (I forgot which has more mitochondria...I want to say type I). I believe I'm recounting this correctly that sprinters have higher concenration of type IIb muscle fibers and distance runners have a higher concentration of type I and IIa.

As I understand it, how you work out affects the kind of muscle you're building. Light weight - many repetition workouts build your endurance. Heavy weight - few repetition workouts build strength. You can more or less pliometrically work out with weights but the momentum can be dangerous, but pliometrics builds power (pardon me if I've spelled it wrong), that is, explosive speed (work is proportional to force given a set distance, work over time = power, makes sense, doesn't it?).

What I've read is that endurance is the least enduring aspect of strength training. Once you stop working out, your endurance fades much faster than strength. Fencing practice is an exercise in endurance...you're contracting your muscles at a managable amount for a long period of time. Lunging and recovery is about power (as in strength). Finally, the off season for fencing isn't very long.

So, given this information (I'll post the links at the end...there are two very good fitness websites I've found), the conclusion I'm operating on is this...
-Train for strength during the off season. Strength is easily maintained by performing only 1 workout session a week. During the off season, weight train every other day. When you start fencing again, endurance will come.
-Don't worry about being big and slow. I don't know who came up with this, but it sounds like a wives tale. Unless you're lifting weights at a sluggish pace (count 2 up, 4 down per rep is the advice I was given...any slower and you've already maxed out) you aren't developing a slow reaction. You aren't going to become Arnold in the space of 3 months, and if you are sluggish on the strip, it's because you're weak...you should be strength training!
-Muscles can and do change back and forth, but they do so according to stimulus and around your genetic predisposition. However, this adaptation is slow. If you are a big, honking, 260 pound beefcake chock full of type I muscle fibers because you spend 3 hours at a time in the gym every day, it stands to reason you aren't going to be very fast! After a while of fencing instead of body building, you'll be pretty darn fast. You on the other hand only going to spend 30-60 minutes every other day at this tops, and even then for only a few months before you're fencing again.
-Work out the whole body. Pliometrically train your legs if you can since this is where you want power. If you're just beginning, start with the exercises with a weight you can manage several sets with many repetitions to train your muscles in the correct form. Increase the weight, decrease the sets and reps. Personally, I try to stay in the 8-12 set range for the smaller muscles (12-20 for the legs back and stomach). Once you hit the ceiling, you've graduated.
-Sets are not over once you hit a number. They're over when you can't complete the rep with the correct form. If you can do 44 reps on the first set with the weight you're using before you just can't lift one more, you are WAY under weight.
-The jury is still out on whether you need to do more than 1 set. Apparently a second set gives you only a 5% increase in performance but takes twice as long (since you're doing twice as much). Bear in mind you've got as many as 12 exercises to get through. Personally I only do the 1 and spend the other half an hour on aerobic exercises.

And now, without further adeu, where I get my information...
-General information about fitness:
http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/weight.htm
-Information on working out in general, exercises, and stretches...
http://www.exrx.net/Exercise.html
-A fencer's workout from the Illinois Division Newsletter (at the end)
http://totheescrime.org/newsletter/
-USOC Men's Fworkout...(submitted in a previous thread)
http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthr...&threadid=7231

[vegan]

Indy, Wizardly,

Indy most of what wizardly said is exactly correct. Lifting is not bad for your fencing depending on what and how you are doing it. Get with a good Personal trainer who is familiar with the sport of fencing and you should be ok. I would recomend trying to develop both Slow and Fast twitch muscles- slow is developed in a traditional weight program- and you can do this in any gym or at home. As for fast twitch muscles, you need to do the lifting as fast as you can (you know- the guys who do about 60 pushups in a minute- just do the same thing with weights!)without losing control. Don't just train your legs either- and if you fence a lot of have for a little while please work on you balance, and rear side (for it is most certainly weaker!). For endurance, I would try running or cycling to train your cardio system as well as muscles. Ideally you would train to ride or run with a very varied tempo (fast, slow, very slow, very fast, etc.).
Good luck,
B.

[three_hundred_fifty_five]

Wow, wizardly gave a lot of information.

...and once this happens you cant change them back...
Your muscles can change from fast twitch to slow twitch and vice versa. It depends on how you train.

...Unless you're lifting weights at a sluggish pace (count 2 up, 4 down per rep is the advice I was given...any slower and you've already maxed out) you aren't developing a slow reaction...
If your goal is strength and muscle mass gain, then you purposely do slow repetitions.

...If you can do 44 reps on the first set with the weight you're using before you just can't lift one more, you are WAY under weight...
Not necessarily. This depends on your training program. For a regular-person workout, 44 reps is high and you are not working with enough weight. Super high rep sets can be a part of your workout. It's extreme though, but not unheard of in bodybuilding.

...The jury is still out on whether you need to do more than 1 set. Apparently a second set gives you only a 5% increase in performance but takes twice as long (since you're doing twice as much). Bear in mind you've got as many as 12 exercises to get through...
If your workout is based on doing 12 different exercises to work out the entire body, then doing 1 set per exercise is more for maintaining strength and not geared to increasing strength, i.e. you won't get any stronger than you already are. So, in the off-season, you may want to split up your workouts so that you are doing less different exercises but repeating the ones that you are doing more than once, e.g. 4 different exercises, each one performed for 3 sets.

[Wizardly]

About the slow reps...
My reading led me to believe that intensity was the least robust between frequency, intensity and time. If you sacrafice on intensity (weight) you have to more or less geometrically increase frequency or time to offset the effect.

About heavy weights, reptetition time, and single sets...
This is where the concept of 1-rep-max comes in. That is, the amount of weight for which you can only do 1 repetition. At 4-6 rep max weight, you're doing the most stimulation of muscle growth (hypertrophy). 8-12 still stimulates hypertrophy, but also a little endurance too. A long, slow rep in the zone in which you're working is a rep completed with bad form. If you're intentionally doing slow reps, that's one thing, but if the first 7 reps take 6 seconds to complete bu tthe 8th takes 10, you're pretty much at a weight for which you can perform 8 reps, max. I've also read that muscles should be worked to the point of total failure for some fibers while others are only partially depleted (hence the concept of maximum repetitions). This si why you shouldn't stop just because you've reached a certain number of reps. When doing 2 sets, you should pretty much reach exhaustion twice over. If you've exhausted yourself on the first set, you've stimulated muscle growth.

[three_hundred_fifty_five]

Let me clarify what I meant by slow rep. You can do a slow rep just because the weight is heavy to the point where you can't lift it faster, that is not what I am talking about. A purposely slow rep is lifting a weight that you can handle with control for multiple reps, but you slow the push (or pull) for intensity or burn.

If one is on a power lifting or bodybuiilding type of workout program, one goes through cycles or various types of workouts: heavy weight with low reps, light weight with high reps, and things in between. For muscle mass growth, a slow rep is highly beneficial. However, because your body adjusts, this exercise does not become helpful as you constantly repeat it. So, if muscle mass is not your goal, then it's not as beneficial.

About the slow reps...
My reading led me to believe that intensity was the least robust between frequency, intensity and time. If you sacrafice on intensity (weight) you have to more or less geometrically increase frequency or time to offset the effect.

Maybe we are on the same page or just misunderstanding each other. If you are not physically able to lift a lot, then you are not able to benefit from a high-intensity set compared to someone who is stronger. As an example, if someone is able to bench press 500 pounds for one repetition, that set is very intense. It's over in a matter of seconds. Compared to someone who can only bench 80 pounds, it would take that person multiple reps in multiple sets over a longer period of time at a lower weight to match the energy expended.

[theperfect01]

I'm seeing there's many different views on the purpose of the "slow" rep, so allow me to present my learned prospective...I mean, this degree has got to be getting me SOMEwhere..

The idea of a slow rep is so that you don't rely simply on gravity and momentum to do the weight lifting for you. For instance on arm curls, if you're just swinging your arms up and down, then it's the gravity that's moving weights down and your momentum that's allowing you to swing them back up (I could draw you a cool physiological model on this one, but I'd rather try to save my dorky image). I hesitate to say "all", but most of your weight lifting should be done with slow reps, otherwise it's just a waste of time.

If you're planning on looking like Fabio, I would suggest slow reps of heavy weights. However, if you've got a six-pack hidden by a keg, you're going to have to lose the keg first...otherwise you'll just make yourself appear larger.

Just because you're building muscle doesn't also mean that you can't be building your reaction time, speed, and endurance. I know some reflex-building exercises if you think that'd help. But I think what your friend might have been getting at was that just building muscle isn't always the best thing to do...you also have to train your body to use that muscle in your desired activity (fencing, in this case). So if you're just building muscle and not concentrating on the whole speed and endurance-thing, of course you're going to get slower.

[Wizardly]

I think we are on the same page and just misunderstanding each other.

I get what you're saying about increased time. The math is simple. Given a set intensity, increased time leads to increased performance. Suffice it to say I was talking specifically about unintentionally slow repetitions. I wonder if you can tell me since you bring it up and it makes me wonder: will a slow repetition favor the growth of type I muscle fiber rather than type II?

Good point TP1 about momentum. I'm thinking the word to keep in mind is "control." And yes, please share the reflex building exercises.

I would like some clarification on one point though: wouldn't the 9 months of fencing offset the 3 months of strenth training (targetted specifically for strength rather than for fencing-specific strength)? That is, wouldn't it be best to spend those 3 months trying to get as much strength as possible and then spend the first few weeks you'd normally spend reacclimating to fencing when the season starts up again conditioning yourself to fencing? Even if you do bulk up and get slow, wont the time spent fencing instead of working out negate the side effects of "becomming slow?"

[three_hundred_fifty_five]

...I hesitate to say "all", but most of your weight lifting should be done with slow reps, otherwise it's just a waste of time...
I disagree and will give you the answer why. Your body becomes used to a particular exercise after it is repeated a certain number of times. At first, your muscles react to the stimulation and grow. After it adjusts, it doesn't grow or react to the stimulus as before. To stimulate your body to grow again, you have to change your exercise. This includes the speed of the rep. That's only one reason. The second reason is if you are training for fast twitch reaction, you want to do fast reps of an exercise. One example of an exercise that is to be performed with fast reps is the power clean. However, most exercises, you want to perform with control so medium speed is acceptable, particularly when doing high rep/low weight regimine.

wouldn't the 9 months of fencing offset the 3 months of strenth training (targetted specifically for strength rather than for fencing-specific strength)?
That depends. If you stop weight training during the season, you will lose some strength throughout the season, which is a bit counter-productive. Like other sports, you have your off-season workouts and your during-season workouts. That means, you should continue weight training during the fencing season to maintain what you've built up during the off-season. As a fencer, your off and on-season workouts should both be for fencing-specific strength unless you compete in other sports.

[Indy4ever]

[gives a low whistle of someone completely out of his depth]



Okay, this is a lot of information to process but I think I have everything I need here guys. I am very impressed, so thank you very much for rallying to help me!

btw perfect01 I would be very interested in seeing your reflex building exercises

[Jason]

Ah, the weight training discussion.
Same discussion, different names.

The cyclical nature of the internet is dizzying.

[Dragonfly]

When your posture is correct, your head in alignment with the rest of your spine you'll have better point control, because you won't wobble when you lunge or do other fencing actions.


Increased strength will improve reaction time in fencing. But you may not necessarily have real lightening fast reactions; you may be able to stay in a lunge longer and parry riposte from there; redouble from there, and other stuff.

One thing with the bulking up, is if you lose your flexability, you'll find yourself creeping in too close to the opponent to get the point onto the target, and then you'll do a bunch of little parry ripostes until someone steps back; so, I wish someone would print up the perfect workup; but I like long smooth muscle development rather than the bulkier development. But that's for the long attack; the middle attack can use more bulk; and the short attack the most bulk. So, maybe it's related to where you attack from.

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[Dragonfly]

After looking at one of the replies, I would also agree that there is controversy about circuit training. Circuit training is excellent, however, if someone's enrolled in another course, it may be too much; but, I'll say this, in a recent aerobic class I've been taking; I noticed that lots of students are stumbling around in knee braces because they're using steps that are too high for them. Their body mechanics are really bad; one woman has a really tough time with it, you should be able to step up, and step down without bending or twisting or you'll start to use compensatory muscles and wind up swayback. I never compete in those classes; other students pile up 3 steps, while I use one step and go immediately into a fencing class without any stress injuries. Circuit training if done correctly will protect your joints from injury too. The rationale for weight trainings' popularity is that it supports the spine, making the surrounding tissue strong to keep the body erect. Strong neck muscles will protect you from whiplash when someone hits you on the mask. One more p.s. the kids that are doing really well, are fencing 4 to 5 times a week, not less than 2-3 hours of training. They're in it for real, the other fencers meeting 2 times a week have to do other stuff, or they'll never be able to compete.

[Mergs]

Attached is a weight training program that was developed at the Olympic Training Center, Colorado Springs for the Coaches College in 1993 by the conditioning trainers there. You might want to use it a starting point and modify it to your own needs.

[drayke]

Originally posted by Indy4ever
According to him it does something to muscles so that they stop being 'reacting' muscles (so you stop reacting as fast), and become some kind of other muscle, and once this happens you cant change them back.

What kind of muscle fibers you have is totally determined by your genetics. You can stregthen your muscles, you can improve their endurance and through polymetrics, you can increase their capability to complete an action but you can't change if they are fast twitch or not.

The problem is weight training without flexibility training - that will slow your 'reacting' down if you bulk but lose flexibility.