Questions, Questions, Questions - About the $1000 Epee Tournament

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Chris
As for top 8 not attracting corporate sponsorship, well, last time I watched a NASCAR race, they started 30 cars or so, and most of them had $eriou$ corporate sponsorship; can anyone tell me how many people win a NASCAR race?

Brad's point was that if you DON'T have much of a chance of making top eight you won't get sponsorship. As you point out, all of NASCAR has sponsors, even those likely to finish DFL. However, that has to do with the fact that ALL of those cars will be on television, even the ones in last. In this format, you don't make television unless you make the eight. thus, there is no motivation for sponsorship if you are unlikely to make the eight.

-m

[CvilleFencer]

A very good point Epeemike! Just out of curiosity do you plan on attending? It would be cool to meet some of the fencing.net folks that I have not run into before. I am thinking very hard about showing up myself. For me it really comes down to rather or not I have the cash to spend on weekend out of state for a tourney that give no points or ratings for me. Still, I think it would be fun to attend, and I am going to make the effort.

[epeemike81]

One more question:
I see on the website that the mall your venue is in is 863,000 sq. ft. Since I assume you don't have the ENTIRE mall, how much space DO you have for this tournament?

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer
A very good point Epeemike! Just out of curiosity do you plan on attending? It would be cool to meet some of the fencing.net folks that I have not run into before. I am thinking very hard about showing up myself. For me it really comes down to rather or not I have the cash to spend on weekend out of state for a tourney that give no points or ratings for me. Still, I think it would be fun to attend, and I am going to make the effort.

yeah, but you're a little closer than me.

Mileage: $416 (using .25 per mile as an estimate for cost of gas and wear and tear. this is BELOW federal level, but it's what the USFA gives, so I figured I'd use it.)
Hotel: $60 (figure I can get one for 30/night)
Lost Hours: 27 hrs driving, a full weekend down there, so I couldn't work on monday or friday. with my lowly jobs, I'd probably lose ~$322
New Jacket and Knickers: $100 (what, you thought I'd buy GOOD ones to silkscreen?)
Silkscreening pattern on them: $50 (at LEAST, probably more)

Total Cost: $948

prize money that I have ANY shot of winning: $0.

Sorry, no.

honestly, even if I thought I would win, it would essentially be a break-even event for me. If I had something else to do in NC, maybe I'd do it. This is essentially at best a regional event. I like the idea of a pro circuit, and I think it can work, but 1) it's GOT to travel, 2) needs more prize money to make it worthwhile, 3) needs to have local qual paths (like PGA). if I'm somebody who hasn't seen fencing, and I turn on this pro stuff, I'm going to assume it's the best of the best. My major fear is that this is going to end up being a mostly low level tournament, with a few standouts thrown in (note: in this isnstance, "low level" is a relative term. it is NOT intended to offend. I am low level. Hell, in this regard, I'd say my coach is low level, or at best the bottom of high level.). If this happens, we'll end up shooting our already poor public image in the foot. I want to show the public the atletes that we have at the top of the sport. watching them is NEVER boring, even in WE.

Honestly, I think the USFA should try to put together some edited shows and television coverage. we already have a circuit we could cover: the div. I nacs. sure, it's only 3 a year, but that makes it more likely that we can get coverage from more major stations. if it gains popularity, we'll start covering our fencers at WC.

btw, if you want to meet fencing.net people, maybe you should come up north to our open (yet to be scheduled. probably sometime in may). last year, Paolo came up to it, and I think he had a good time... right Paolo?? I do understand that the expenses associated with that for you are similar to the ones I just cited, but we will have strong events in all weapons (A2, A2, B2, last year) with large fields (upper forties to mid fifties last year, hopefully over 64 in epee and foil this year). Thanks for the opportunity for a shameless plug! more on this later.

-m

[dekko13]

We will not be using all 800,000+ sqft of the mall but we do have plenty of room in the walkways of the mall for the strips and refs. Each strip will be roped off with enough room for the strip, fencers and ref. The final strip will be on a raised platform to be seen from way down the hall way be people walking by.

An earlier post asked what rules changes the PFL did that now the FIE have adopted. Some were direct others were adapted from what was done by the PFL events. Foil, no off target lights to stop the action. I know it is still being debated by the FIE, and is a topic for another thread, but I will tell you that the fencing was much better, cleaner, and more fun to watch than with the lights shutting down the action everythime they started to get going. Sabre, no cuff. The FIE stiffened the blade and now have the 'stubby' cuff or the cuff with the extra material covering the hand but bottom line is the back of the hand is no longer target. Initiated by the PFL adopted by the FIE. General, having touched scored be a primary tie breaker indicater rather than touched received. Getting a card for leaving the side of the strip instead of lose ground. This one has gotten wierd but at least for a while the FIE gave cards for leaving the side of the strip. The last biggie is giving money for results at events and they are doing that as well.

Enjoy!

[Wizardly]

Originally posted by epeemike81
And I dismissed such concerns about allowing coloration because I thought nobody would ever do that....

-m

this is precisely why I thought a "no camoflage" rule would be important.

[Craig]

Someone care to post a timeline of when the various rule changes were being proposed and worked on in rules committees and overlaying that with timelines for the PFL? I may be wrong, but I seem to remember the "no off target" being a hot topic at least a year before the PFL came about.

Cheers,
Craig

[epeemike81]

not to mention that the FIE has now gone back to losing ground for leaving the strip. So, even if they DID take the idea from a VERY localized league which existed for a year, they apparently felt it was a bad one.

Do you honestly believe that the PFL caused these changes, or even sparked debate about them???

My bet is that ALL of these ideas were proposed BEFORE the PFL came into existence.

-m

[epeemike81]

FYI:

Originally pmed by dekko:
I could run this event on index cards due to the fact it is small by tournament standards and having only one event for the day this is real simple. I do actually have a spreadsheet I have designed myself that helps me run a tournament and have had lots of success with it and never had a problem, other than user error. I don't like any of them so I made my own and unless I mess up it works perfectly. No macros or programming just the spreadsheet itself. If you like I can send you a copy.

All the boxes will be FIE boxes, 5 gorunded strips. None of the boxes will have the time or score showing on them for Saturday but Sunday will have a large socreboard type running clock for all to see.

Figured some others might have similar questions, so there are the answers.

-m

[Prometheus]

I am curious, what is the plan to promote this event? I have found it very difficult to even find the website unless it is typed into goggle exactly. Presumably, to attract the attention necessary to produce a sponsor driven league, there will need to be minimally regional exposure. (This part is however speculation) Will the primary method of advertising be television based since the goal is to support televised fencing?

Additionally, once the first event in the circuit has taken place, will excerpts from the tapes be made available for download?

[Prometheus]

Incidentally, since the rules on the webpage say only that FIE uniforms are not required and that the uniform must have three colors, it would, technically, be legal to fence this tournament wearing a sheer Dan Marino jersey and a smile.

I wonder if Reynolds would give me a sponsorship if I show up as the aluminum foil warrior. It would be convenient, since my entire uniform would be grounded… Or perhaps just a saber rig would be sufficient…

Advice to those wishing for the outlandish: be careful what you wish for, it just may come true.

Seriously, a codified* set of rules would be not only nice for us, but it is necessary for fair play. Eliminate that and in six months there will be a thread, "Swordmasterseries: stage show or legit sporting event"

*and readily available, in English (The series is in the USA)

[nahouw]

Originally posted by Craig
What "oiuyt" was referring to here is that you stated that the event would be seeded according to the FIE rules. In FIE seeding, there are no A's, B's, C's, etc. - there are only FIE points earned at WC events. According to FIE seeding procedures, if you don't have WC points, then you will be randomly placed in the pools.

May I just make a point of clarification on the FIE seeding procedures: All delegations, when they submit their entries to a World Cup, are required to submit their entries in their seeding order. The competition seeding for those with World Rankings is done via the World Rankings; for those fencers without a World Ranking, the bout committee and the team leaders hold a meeting, in which they discuss all the fencers and seed them appropriately -- it is not random.

What provisions has the Swordmasters Series made for seeding of the fencers? This is a valid question that others have raised. For example, for the Coupe du Nord series, they abide by this seeding protocol: 1) FIE World rankings 2) Coupe du Nord rankings 3) National rankings 4) Unranked fencers from other nations 5) Host nation fencers. In the Coupe du Nord series, they run 1 round of pools based upon this preliminary seeding protocol; the competition proper is then run based on the seeding of the preliminary pools -- the reason being that you must have a protocol to seed, and by running the first round of pools, you would get a truer seeding than the rules of the protocol.

[nahouw]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
Because the fencing mask allows a wider view, I think in some ways, it works better than the football or baseball shots. However; I think an exterior mounted helmet camera positioned on the same side as the weapon arm is the best of all. It shows both the bladework and the opposing fencer unobstructed. I'd cringe to put it into sabre competition without some kind of protective housing.

The mask-cam already exists -- I demonstrated this for Zivkovic at the Peabody World Cup 2 years ago to create some video footage to send with the mask to the FIE lab in Italy. (it is an interior mask mounted camera -- centrally located) He has it for sale, for anybody that is interested.

Come to think of it, is the Swordmaster Series intending to use this in their event? If they are interested in TV exposure, this is something that they should be using in the finals -- the setup comes with remote viewing, so to use it as a feed for TV should be an easy thing to do.

[dekko13]

While I do not have an exact timeline of rules changes it basically goes like this. PFL events, first half of 1998. Change of touches scored, 1999, no sabre cuff, 1999-2000, same as the stiffer blade rule change. Card for leaving the strip, 1999-2000. Yes, this one didn't last long but was changed briefly.

As for the idea this was a regional league and why would folks watch it, these events had people from all over the world. I was there for one and there was a guy from Tazmania. I honestly didn't know there was a real place named Tazmania or where it was until I met this guy. Fine geography isn't my forte, but he traveled from south of Australia to upstate NY to fence in the first pro event. I would hazard a guess that this alone should tell people that the PFL was more than a regional league. The epee event alone had 8 or 9 different olympic teams represented.

I suspect the FIE watches every fencing event around the world that has rule differences for whatever reason to see how it goes and then decides if they need to alter their rules. I would be very surprised if they didn't watch the Titan Games to see how that went.

Lastly, videos are available on the SWS website for $100 each. This gives you the 4 episodes of the event you choose.

Enjoy!

david@usafencing.com

[Craig]

Originally posted by dekko13
While I do not have an exact timeline of rules changes it basically goes like this. PFL events, first half of 1998. Change of touches scored, 1999, no sabre cuff, 1999-2000, same as the stiffer blade rule change. Card for leaving the strip, 1999-2000. Yes, this one didn't last long but was changed briefly.

Thanks for the info.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by dekko13
As for the idea this was a regional league and why would folks watch it, these events had people from all over the world. I was there for one and there was a guy from Tazmania. I honestly didn't know there was a real place named Tazmania or where it was until I met this guy. Fine geography isn't my forte, but he traveled from south of Australia to upstate NY to fence in the first pro event. I would hazard a guess that this alone should tell people that the PFL was more than a regional league. The epee event alone had 8 or 9 different olympic teams represented.

represented by CURRENT members of those teams? please cite. I have a friend who did fairly well in the PFL (never got his prize money, but that's a seperate issue) and I suspect that he couldn't have done as well if he was competing against 8 or 9 current olympians.

I suspect the FIE watches every fencing event around the world that has rule differences for whatever reason to see how it goes and then decides if they need to alter their rules. I would be very surprised if they didn't watch the Titan Games to see how that went.

last time I checked, the titan games was run by the USOC and USFA and DID use FIE rules. while I'm sure they watched the event, I think it has no bearing on this discussion.

-m

[Chris]

Originally posted by epeemike81
Brad's point was that if you DON'T have much of a chance of making top eight you won't get sponsorship. As you point out, all of NASCAR has sponsors, even those likely to finish DFL. However, that has to do with the fact that ALL of those cars will be on television, even the ones in last. In this format, you don't make television unless you make the eight. thus, there is no motivation for sponsorship if you are unlikely to make the eight.

-m

OK, I see your point, but what you really missed was not that all those 30 (or so) cars will be on TV, but, rather, the millions & millions of TV's that they will be on!

My point (which I really didn't make clear, I know) is that, A. since it's unlikely that people in the top 20 of the points lists are going to switch their priorities, that, at the moment, the talent pool is totally unknown, to either potential competitors, nor the potential sponsors, so they really can't make the decision based on any supposition of making the TV broadcast; and B. the viewership for this event is also an unknown, and while I'll beleive there's some estimates, and a way to 'sell' them, I think it's important to remember that a sponsor wants a profile of viewership, aswell as a number: the number is going to be small, to start with, so you are probably looking at smaller sponsors, and I doubt that a Seattle sponsor really going to get to excited if 20,000 people in North (south?) Carolina are seeing their ad's/logo.

Don't get me wrong, I am certainly interested in seeing where this thing goes, however, I think that, since there's still confusion about professional vs. amateur status, I don't know who will really consider this, and since initial registration seems totally open; first come - first served, that there's really no telling who really has a chance to be in the eight, although, I imagined they'd still have to be passably competent.

My guess is that there needs to be some way to guarantee SOME minimal level of exposure for all sponsored competitors, even if it is just including quick snapshots of who the finalists fenced on their way to the final, which would allow exposure of sponsor logos.
Additionally, expansion of the distribution/broadcast list of the programming, so that potential sponsors can see there is going to be more potential for people to see it, is probably in order, as well.

I imagine that there might be a chicken and egg problem here, but might also be a 'two birds' solution: IF you really have a sponsor interested, maybe they could be helpful in getting the local cable providers to carry the programming.

I'll be interested to see/hear how htis turns out!

Have fun! FENCE!

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Chris
My point (which I really didn't make clear, I know) is that, A. since it's unlikely that people in the top 20 of the points lists are going to switch their priorities, that, at the moment, the talent pool is totally unknown

well, I know that Jeff misses the top 20 by a whole 2 spots, but I'd hardly call him unknown.

-m

[dekko13]

I appears that the person from MN gets the idea of what we are trying to do. Let's say he wanted in and got a sponsor. I agree they may not be very interested in the fact that their logo would get on TV in the Carolinas but they could have this shown in their area for not a great deal of money and then their logo would be shown on their local market. It will cost us just over $100 to get this shown here in 4-5 different counties, I suspect the cost is very similar in many markets around the country.

As for current members of teams the only name I recall off hand was Mr. Shong from Canada who won the epee event. I also suspect many of the 'current' teams have had at least some if not a complete turn over of people from 1996/2000 to now. But there were represenatives from the olympics from 1972, or 1976, to 2000 at the epee event alone.

Enjoy!

david@usafencing.com