Questions, Questions, Questions - About the $1000 Epee Tournament

[chopo]

Hi Dave,

I for one was sorry to see the PFL sink with no survivors. There is always room for levity in such a serious sport as fencing. I had no idea the PFL had such influence on the FIE, as you state in one of your posts:

"Many rule changes that we now have were first applied in the fencing events of this organization. The last of which may fall soon and that being that off target hits in foil to not stop the action."

I had no idea the PFL was so cutting edge. I'm sure the FIE will closely follow your new season, and its subsequent effect upon the FIE's Rules meeting later this year.

Call me old fashioned, but I believe I will stay with the imperfect USFA, and the obscurity (on TV, at least) that implies.

Best of luck,

Chopo

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
Your TV credentials are suspect.

Let's see...you think a channel surfer will stop for a neon pink uniform, but something like a POV shot through a mask with blades flashing directly at the viewer is eye-rolling uninteresting?

And yet, you are staking the look of your fencing show on a local cable company who wants to do it live-to-tape switched, crewed no doubt by the cable company owner's son and three of his friends from the junior college A/V program?

Here's a hint. An excruciatingly bad hour of TV fencing is not an improvement over an edited news piece, Peabody Award aside.

I agree entirely about the pink uniforms and suspect credentials, but I have to agree with dekko about the mask cam. While my particular opinion comes mostly from baseball, I can't stand the catcher cam. Eye catching aside, it's not a useful angle! it doesn't convey information effectively.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by dekko13
My personal design would be a series of black swirls all over the uniform to confuse and disguise my distance

And I dismissed such concerns about allowing coloration because I thought nobody would ever do that....

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by dekko13
Image waivers are not necessary due to the fact that to the top 8 will definately be on TV and not may be on TV and they know that going in, there is no image to steal. I suspect the Orlando event had everyone sign this 'just in case' they end up on film without their knowledge. With this event, the top 8 know for a fact they will be on TV.

See, guys, there IS prize money for the top 8! All you have to do is wait til the show airs and then sue them!

Sorry, but to use an image, there MUST be an explicit waiver, or you are opening yourself up to a law suit.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
Say someone from the top eight has a meltdown, screams profanities at the ref and stomps off the strip, only to trip and rip open his knickers, revealing his Mike Eskin Signature Series (tm) epee-monogrammed thong underwear. (It may or may not be lime green).

Speaking of lawsuits, does this fall under slander, or libel??

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by oiuyt
As to whether or not you can release your breath without the appearance of my entry form on your fax machine, the primary reason I would go to NC would be if I were convinced that the tournament would be worth the trip. I'm sure there are other ways, but some of the easiest that I can think of that would accomplish that are:
...
2) A good sabre tournament or a REALLY good epee tournament (standards for what is "good" and "REALLY good" are fairly high, especially given the distance involved),
3) Great big honkin' prizes that I thought I had a shot of winning and that could pay (in whole or in part) for the trip (or otherwise make it worthwhile which could certainly entail non-cash prizes (for reference, a national medal, while not typically considered a great big honkin' prize could conceivably qualify for this criteria)),

seems to me this is a good reason to show the list of registered names. I certainly won't go unless it is very high level or very low level (i.e., good experience, or likely prize money).

4) Opportunity to pay for the trip with some other means (refereeing, work-related travel, etc.),

speaking of which, are you hiring refs? if you want to fly me in, let me know, though I'm just a lowly five. if you don't mind, though, I'd rather that you book the tix and hotel yourself, rather than my having to depend on reimbursement, as your BEST case produces NO net profit from the entry fees and I'm not terribly confident about your ability to get enough sponsors.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by dekko13
First off, I don't know who you are quoting about the 'being on TV issue' and releasing iamge rights but I am quoting our attourney. Who are you quoting? Yourself?

I would politely suggest you get yourself a new attorney, or get that in writing so that you can make sure he defends the case free of charge and pays the damages out of his pocket.

As for the uniform issue, I am not sure why you would want to find a loophole in the rules instead of following the rules but I guess some people are just like that. The people coming to our event are working to get colors on their uniforms to follow the rules and not studing the rules to 'find a way around them.' I have already said that when you show up to fence I would allow your boring uniform with the blue tag on the mask and the maroon socks. I do admit, you will stand out. Maybe not as much as the person in the neon pink uniform but you will stand out none the less. And no, it does not require imagination.

Actually, I think it does. not only that, I think that his finding your loophole is SIGNIFICANTLY more entertaining (not to mention less gaudy) than colored uniforms!

As for the timed format, think about this logically for a minute. As mentioned already, the time will be running. The very nature of the running time and the way a tie score is handled really does prevent a slow down outside of fencing actions. I can just as easily slow down the bout by not letting you hit me and that would be more effective than out side of the fencing actions. The fencer who scores the first single valid touch will get the victory in the event of a tie at the end of the 4 minutes. This will cause the fencer who does not get the first touch to come after the opponent even more. It will also cause the fencer who is ahead to at least stay tied and score more touches to cause the opponent to not have a chance to catch up. The rules in place to aloow for penalty cards to be given for delays. And yes, the fixed time is for TV purposes. We could run an event with DE bouts for the final 8 but a great deal of editing would liekly need to be done to fit the fencing into the time purchased.

lol....

First of all, oiuyt originally assumed it was running. secondly, you seem to be missing his point. there is plenty of legitimate stuff which happens during the halts, and plenty of stall tactics. For example, if there are nine seconds left, and I'm up one, and I ask to have my opponents bend checked. he DOES have an illegal bend, and IS issued a card. Thus, it wasn't delay of bout. however, time expired during the test and I win. you don't see that as a problem??? I GUARENTEE you that I can waste 2 minutes of that 4 outside of actual fencing without EVER drawing a card for delay.

I am surprised you are a head coach of a university and do not know how an event is seeded. There are more than points involved. Yes, this is not a usfa event but the ratings fencers have earned will be used to seed the pools. I am surprised this is a shock to you but oh well.

LOL!

You said you are using FIE seeding! in FIE seeding, there ISN'T more than points involved! now it sounds like you're using USFA seeding. this makes more sense. but it is your fault for saying FIE, not oiuyt's interpretation.

although, I gotta say I know MANY coaches who are somewhat lost re: seeding, oiuyt isn't one of them. Besides, many people don't have knowledge commensurate with their position. your attorney, for example.

The names are not shown to keep you coming back to our website. I can see that is working.

Actually, it keeps me FROM coming back to your website. if you showed the names, you MIGHT have a snowball's chance in hell of me coming to your event. as things stand now, your chances arent' quite that good.

Again, only first place will receive $$$. Second through eighth place will receive very large menacing swords. Better than a medal, plaque or fencer guy trophy.

that depends, now doesn't it? For example, I'd rather have a second place medal from nationals than a large menacing sword from your event. whatever your trophies are, they are just that: trophies. what gives them value is the prestige of the event.

Lastly, I am surprised you have so many questions and are trying to rip this apart at every turn when you have no intention of fencing in the event or suporting this is any way shape of form. Don't get me wrong I have had very similar questions from many people in my personal email box and after the questions got answered I received their entry form on the fax machine. You seem to have no interest in having anything to do with this event yet you seem to be very much against it and ask these questions with the intention of ripping this apart and apparently trying to convince people not to participate.

Why is that? I would love to know.

david@usafencing.com

can't speak for him, but speaking for myself, I'm not so much against the concept as the execution. though he has raised some nitpicky points, oiuyt has also raised a number of real problems with your circuit which will lead, imo, to a lack of viability (especially the size of entry fees and distribution of prizes). these are the types of questions your organizers should have asked LONG before this point. you need to have MUCH better long term planning than is exhibited in your releases. You should be THANKFUL when people point out issues to them. after all, better to be ripped apart here and fix the problem than to have it bite you in the ***. if, however, you insist on ignoring the issues (as you seem to be), then they will still bite you.

btw, just so you get MY particulars right, I AM a college student, epee is french, but mike and 81 are not, and though I haven't read your coloration rules (because I have even LESS interest), I'm guessing that I, as well, would find the loophole. after all, regardless of creativity, finding the loophole is CHEAPER than maintaining an extra set of equipment.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by CarlKnoch
As someone from the outside, and someone who doesn't know the guy who started this long ago, I have to say it looks a bit silly at this point.

I agree with everyone who says that they want to see fencing on TV, but this isn't fencing. It's something less than fencing in my mind. I hate to say it but I think that Dan is correct about it having the feel of battlebots.

When you look at professional sports, they are normally modelled after the amatuer sport they came from at first, and this isn't the case here. It seems like you are taking the rules and trying to make them more appealing to the masses, so why not go all the way and fence with sharpened swords? First blood wins? Isn't that what most of the average stupid americans out there would want to see?

That's not what I want people to think of fencing. Fencing is better than that. That's just my opinion.

To sum it up, this is WWE, not Greco-Roman. Then again, at least Blakeborough has some experience with that....

-m

[picojeff]

Originally posted by epeemike81
epee is french, but mike and 81 are not

What makes quatre-vingts-un not French?

OK, on-topic:

I'm going to try the Swordmaster thing out. I've entered.

Charlotte isn't so far from where my mother lives, and she always wants me to visit more. I have several old jackets and a veritable mountain of knickers, from which I can select one to decorate. I even have an old mask that already has some experimental glitter on it. I may take some old bell guards and color those up too, what can it hurt?

If the event sucks, I'm out $25 but I got to see my mother for the weekend. If it kicks ***, I'll be in the points so I can go to the later events. I hope the rules will be nailed down at least two weeks before the event and clearly posted on the website. All the rules, including a method for handling disputes about what the rules are.

I'd suggest you use the pool-of-8 with the 2-1-2 time format the first day, to get the kinks ironed out and make sure all the fencers are familiar with it. You don't want something to bite you in the *** while you're taping. 5 pools of 8 works nicely, with 32 up into a DE table to 8 who get to come back the second day.

By the way, since my mother will undoubtedly want to come see her wonderful son fencing on TV, what's the deal for spectators? Can she get in as my coach? I'm sure she can handle a stopwatch and yell out how much time is left, and "forward!" when I'm too close to my end line. But you'd better get an image release from her, she might not like having the neighbors see her frothing at the mouth and knocking down your referee when he makes a stupid call.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by dekko13
I am surprised that when the website mentioned that al the FIE rules would be followed that I still have rules questions. I will be the first, next and last to say that we are changing the final 8 to a pool. Otherwise, we are following all standard rules for fencing. We are changing the timing of the box in anyway, we are not changing the rules of penalty cards in anyway, we are not changing any other aspect of the tournament in any way, shape or form, other than the final pool. There is your ruleset. What's the question about that? This is known going in. We are six weeks from the event not 6 minutes away trying to explain all of this for the first time. Where is the issue? Maybe it's not what 'you' would have done but we have selected a format that will go on TV easily in the form of 4-56 minute episodes.

ah, but ALL of the rules questions have had to do with the rules you ARE changing. the REASON you are still getting rules questions is due to the OBVIOUS problems with a running clock, and due to the fact that you have STATED you are using FIE seeding, but specifically described a format which could be best described as USFA seeding (though I am STILL unclear on whether you are using points list and then USFA rating, or just USFA rating...).

As for the uniform issue, I do not expect nor advise that anyone use their pretty FIE uniform to decorate with their own design or a sponsors design. I personally have 3 jackets and one will get decorated. I suspect I am not alone in having more one jacket in this sport. Some people may only have one uniform set and they would be wary about decorating it or buying another one.

you're right, I DO have multiple jackets. the REASON I kept my old jacket when I bought my new one was to have a spare available in case of an issue. given that the vast majority of my events are USFA, altering one for your event makes NO sense (unless, of course, I were likely to get the cash, in which case the alteration is paid for).

Lastly, let's understand something, I have answered all the questions posed to me, maybe not when you think I should have responded, but they are answered none the less.

you have RESPONDED to all the concerns, you have not ANSWERED them. for instance, I for one still see a MAJOR issue with the running clock. you don't seem to. you haven't answered my concern. I know where you stand on it, but it is still a problem, IMO.

If you have a post of 5 questions and I answer 3 of them I am not avoiding the question nor refusing to answer it. I just forgot because I do get so many questions and can't remember them all.

true. but then don't get pissy when we remind you of them.

The way some of your questions have been posed have been construed, not just by me, to be a detriment to what we are going to do.

not just by you?? who else has construed it that way? I have only seen two types of people post on this issue: 1) those who think that oiuyt's questions are reasonable and 2) you.

The ruleset is in place, if you feel that you need to find a loophole in the rules instead of following the rules, that is your perogative and I guess since there will always be people to do this that's the way it is. I can sit here and give you countless examples of loopholes in the usfa rules as I am sure I am not alone. If you disagree with the ruleset that's fine. Everything is figured out, it's all there.

true that there will always be loopholes. most are tolerable (like the uniform one). some, however, are NOT tolerable and need to be closed. a running clock, for example, lends itself to stall tactics (tying shoes, straightening weapons, wiping sweat). while this is not the intent, it IS easy to do and a MAJOR issue. you NEED to address this loophole if you want the final 8 to have ANYTHING to do with who is the better fencer.

I encourage questions, and will answer them. I have answered numerous emails sent directly to me and haven't avoided any of them.

your attitude does NOT encourage questions.

If our UMASS friend has a better money structure then have your event and I will do everything I can to be there and participate. Our goal is to get fencing on TV and we will. The rules are set, the hall is rented, the band is ready, and cameras are on. Let's do lots of fencing, have fun and spend our time talking about who had the best decorated uniform.

First of all, why are you so unwilling to take suggestions? the "we'll do it our way" attitude isn't helpful. you will run much better events if you consider all ideas (and take the good ones). for example, I intend to steal MANY ideas from Pomme de Terre this year, and I hope many others will do the same. hell, I wish the national office would do the same...

Lastly, it is possible to email me questions, david@usafencing.com. Don't be shy. I will and do answer them.

I think it is more helpful to air questions here. why keep the answers private? this is EXACTLY what a public forum should be used for!

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by picojeff
What makes quatre-vingts-un not French?

Pronunciation and intent.

OK, on-topic:

I'm going to try the Swordmaster thing out. I've entered.

Charlotte isn't so far from where my mother lives, and she always wants me to visit more. I have several old jackets and a veritable mountain of knickers, from which I can select one to decorate. I even have an old mask that already has some experimental glitter on it. I may take some old bell guards and color those up too, what can it hurt?

If the event sucks, I'm out $25 but I got to see my mother for the weekend. If it kicks ***, I'll be in the points so I can go to the later events. I hope the rules will be nailed down at least two weeks before the event and clearly posted on the website. All the rules, including a method for handling disputes about what the rules are.

now, what if that first sentence read "if the event sucks, I'm out $75/100/150..." would you still do it??

I'd suggest you use the pool-of-8 with the 2-1-2 time format the first day, to get the kinks ironed out and make sure all the fencers are familiar with it. You don't want something to bite you in the *** while you're taping. 5 pools of 8 works nicely, with 32 up into a DE table to 8 who get to come back the second day.

not a bad idea. personally, I'd suggest you don't do the 2-1-2 time format. I mean, I know you want it to fit for television, but isn't that what editing is for?? btw, how does showing a pool of 8 with 4 minute bouts get down to 56 minutes?? by my count, its gonna take TWICE that! a pool of 8 has 28 bouts, remember.

-m

[picojeff]

Originally posted by epeemike81
now, what if that first sentence read "if the event sucks, I'm out $75/100/150..." would you still do it??

It should be obvious from the first event how things are going to be in the later events. If it sucks, I will never pay the $50/$75/etc. If it's good, I will be able to use the tape of the show to get sponsors. And if I win the first event, I can pay for all the rest using that money...

The point of my post was, give them a chance. It's not so hard to go to a $25 event to see. If it sucks, you run the risk of being ridiculed by your peers, and by people who wish they could be your peers. (If you've ever read fencingsucks, you'll know that I'm already ridiculed by all sorts of anonymous people.) If it turns into the next great thing, you'll be in on the ground floor.

My schedule conflicts with most of the events after the first two, so it will really have to be good for me to continue past then. I hope it will be that good, and I for one appreciate the efforts of people here to identify so many problems before they manifest themselves. You haven't all been always nice about how you went about pointing things out, but I think in the end a lot of comments here will be useful to the organizers.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by epeemike81
I agree entirely about the pink uniforms and suspect credentials, but I have to agree with dekko about the mask cam. While my particular opinion comes mostly from baseball, I can't stand the catcher cam. Eye catching aside, it's not a useful angle! it doesn't convey information effectively.

Granted, it's an "room grabber" shot...one that captures a viewer's attention while they're near a TV, but doing something else...cooking, cleaning, ironing their lime green fencing thongs. The baseball version is too constricted to be that great. I loved the helmet cam for football. There's nothing like seeing a 260 pound linebacker bearing down and colliding helmet to helmet from the running backs POV!

Because the fencing mask allows a wider view, I think in some ways, it works better than the football or baseball shots. However; I think an exterior mounted helmet camera positioned on the same side as the weapon arm is the best of all. It shows both the bladework and the opposing fencer unobstructed. I'd cringe to put it into sabre competition without some kind of protective housing.

Originally posted by dekko13
First off, I don't know who you are quoting about the 'being on TV issue' and releasing iamge rights but I am quoting our attourney. Who are you quoting? Yourself?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by epeemike81
I would politely suggest you get yourself a new attorney, or get that in writing so that you can make sure he defends the case free of charge and pays the damages out of his pocket.

What's this? Mike and I on the same side of an argument? There must be a syzygy event.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
Say someone from the top eight has a meltdown, screams profanities at the ref and stomps off the strip, only to trip and rip open his knickers, revealing his Mike Eskin Signature Series (tm) epee-monogrammed thong underwear. (It may or may not be lime green).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by epeemike81
Speaking of lawsuits, does this fall under slander, or libel??.

Well...generally, printed defamation events would fall under the libel umbrella.

However, Defense Exhibit #1:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
I originally wanted to compete in my electric lime-green knickers, but my day-glo orange "fencing thong" underwear kept showing through.

Not telegenic at all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by MyrddinsPrecintis that the thong with the little epees on it?

because i think epeemike has that one.

See? Clearly the concept, and hence any libel, originated elsewhere.
Defense Exhibit #2:
In the photo link provided, clear evidence of Mike doing a fashion demo of his Mike Eskin Signature Series(tm) Knee Socks, proving his interest in becoming a public role model for the well dressed gent-about-the-salle. And we all know how difficult it is for public figures to sue.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Alas, Defense Exhibit #2 vanished. Let's try again!

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
In the photo link provided, clear evidence of Mike doing a fashion demo of his Mike Eskin Signature Series(tm) Knee Socks, proving his interest in becoming a public role model for the well dressed gent-about-the-salle. And we all know how difficult it is for public figures to sue.

photo link?? not seeing it...

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
Alas, Defense Exhibit #2 vanished. Let's try again!

and you didn't introduce yourself??

tsk, tsk, tsk....

thanks, Dee Eff Ell and JEC, btw. always nice to be able to put a face with the logon.

-m