Questions, Questions, Questions - About the $1000 Epee Tournament

[rukovsoft]

...and agree with what jeff just stated. Mr Umass is as french as i am american, heu sorry french. wait a second, i m french...

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by dekko13
I am surprised a college student would be that unimaginative with his/her uniform but if that's the best you can do, I will allow you to be embarassed in front of everyone else with your boring uniform.

Actually Oiuyt is not a student, but the head coach of the Umass fencing team. Kind of an important differance.

[dekko13]

It has been a while since I have had french but it did seem very close to the spelling of a common french word. Also, I didn't know this was the head coach and not a student. I thought I student would have more time than a head coach to continually respond and read what is here. Anyway, the past keyboard induced screen name I saw was QWERT.

At any rate, I still look forward to seeing your entry form either on my fax machine or email very soon.

Enjoy!

[Ramrod]

How about answers to the rest of Oiuyt's questions before you go looking for his entry form.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by dekko13
Image waivers are not necessary due to the fact that to the top 8 will definately be on TV and not may be on TV and they know that going in, there is no image to steal. I suspect the Orlando event had everyone sign this 'just in case' they end up on film without their knowledge. With this event, the top 8 know for a fact they will be on TV.

At least you say the TV program has "errors and omissions" coverage. That's good. If I were you, I would also have something in writing from the cable company giving you personal absolution if someone sues you for putting them on TV.

Unless you can convince a judge that this program is a news or documentary journalistic enterprise, putting people on the program without a photo release is running a risk. Say someone from the top eight has a meltdown, screams profanities at the ref and stomps off the strip, only to trip and rip open his knickers, revealing his Mike Eskin Signature Series (tm) epee-monogrammed thong underwear. (It may or may not be lime green). The crowd goes wild, the production people are high-fiving each other (letting the cameras zoom drunkenly to the ceiling). Mr. Profanity marches up to you and says: "You put me on TV and I'll sue you, your mother, and every station that puts me on the air!"

Without an appearance release, you potentially have a major problem.

It's easy to fix. Just include some boilerplate as part of the injury waiver that states participation in the tournament grants the producers all tv rights in perpetuity...blah blah blah.

Uh...you ARE requiring an injury waiver aren't you?

[oiuyt]

Originally posted by dekko13
Sorry Mr. UMASS with the interesting french screen name, I will attempt to nanswer all of your questions even though some have been answered already.

oooooookkkkaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy then.....

Seeding for events is covered in the FIE rules, for reference they are in english somewhere on tghis website.

So seeding is based on FIE points then? As per FIE rules? Assuming that none of the entrants have FIE points you're planning to seed based on random lot drawing? Yeah, THAT'LL work well. Despite your assertions here, I'll still assume that this isn't really want you plan to do. Asking for the means of seeding is a completely reasonable question that is not addressed on your website. I'd assumed that after the first event you would likely use the Swordmaster Series points list. Of course that's not what you say here either.

Image waivers are not necessary due to the fact that to the top 8 will definately be on TV and not may be on TV and they know that going in, there is no image to steal. I suspect the Orlando event had everyone sign this 'just in case' they end up on film without their knowledge. With this event, the top 8 know for a fact they will be on TV.

Heh. You really believe this is true, don't you?

I am surprised a college student would be that unimaginative with his/her uniform but if that's the best you can do, I will allow you to be embarassed in front of everyone else with your boring uniform. However, you will stand out and be the one guy/girl with a boring, simple uniform. So, I guess I can expect your entry form eitherf faxed or emailed real soon?

As mentioned by other people, at least one of whom I've never, to my knowledge, met in real life, I'm not a college student. Not sure I agree that it's an important difference. Besides, it's easy to just come up with a couple of colors for a uniform... finding the loophole in the rules that allows one not to bother, THAT requires imagination. :) Besides, this way I would (note, not "will") stand out and be noticed. That should help my efforts to become sponsored, no?

If I missed a question email me at david@usafencing.com and will answer it.
Enjoy!

I will attempt to nanswer all of your questions even though some have been answered already

Missed a couple.....

How about I just quote from my previous message here:

If the finals bouts are 2 minutes on, 1 minute off, 2 minutes on, is that a running clock (ie think soccer rather than the way fencing normally is)? If so, how much practice do you have with the format and dealing with slow-downs (ie "may I tie my shoe please?", "Wait, could you explain that action for me again" (whoops, this is epee), "Sir, sir, I have sweat in my eyes" *wipe* pause *wipe* *wipe* pause *adjusts mask*)? How much practice do your referees have with carding delay of bout? How telegenic are delay of bout cards? If it's not a running clock then how does this format give a fixed amount of time for a bout for the benefit of TV? That was the reason for the change, no?

I understand that the event will be held with whatever number register. Are there any plans currently in place for how to pay for the 3rd or 4th event when there are only 10 people willing to pay $75 or $100 and prizes alone are 4 times what that brings in? Not to mention all of the other associated costs (equipment, referees, administrative overhead, profit, TV airtime, TV editing, TV taping, etc.)? Do the plans get more specific than "We find enough sponsors that are willing to cover the costs in exchange for being featured on public-access cable shows"?

Out of curiosity, why black out the names until August 1st? Why not let people know who the 20 that are signed up are?

I'll also reiterate Slo-Mo's question that I somehow neglected. You DO have a liability waiver don't you? Something that will protect you, the other fencers, your sponsors, and the cable station(s)? (as with the TV likeness waiver this is more a suggestion formed as a question than a true question)

As to whether or not you can release your breath without the appearance of my entry form on your fax machine, the primary reason I would go to NC would be if I were convinced that the tournament would be worth the trip. I'm sure there are other ways, but some of the easiest that I can think of that would accomplish that are:
1) Availability of national points,
2) A good sabre tournament or a REALLY good epee tournament (standards for what is "good" and "REALLY good" are fairly high, especially given the distance involved),
3) Great big honkin' prizes that I thought I had a shot of winning and that could pay (in whole or in part) for the trip (or otherwise make it worthwhile which could certainly entail non-cash prizes (for reference, a national medal, while not typically considered a great big honkin' prize could conceivably qualify for this criteria)),
4) Opportunity to pay for the trip with some other means (refereeing, work-related travel, etc.),
5) Combined with some other trip, such as visiting a friend or relative.
As mentioned, there are undoubtedly other things that would get me to make such a trip that I'm just not thinking of right now. Unfortunately I don't think you fit with any of the criteria I have listed. If this changes and I can conveniently put Charlotte into my itinerary at the same time as a future event, and I'm convinced that the tournament is worth the entry fee at that time, you might see me yet. But for now I'd suggest respiration as usual.

-B :)

[DanInMI]

Is it just me, or is this whole thing sounding more and more like "Battlebots?"

I can just imagine the coverage on Comedy central.

("AT THE RED END OF THE STRIP........ WEARING PINK AND GREEN ON WHITE......HE IS GONNA OPEN UP A CAN OF SOUTHERN WHUP-***........ SAY HOWDY TO SEEEEEEEEEE-VILLLLLLLE-FENCERRRRRRRRR!"

"AND AT THE BLUE END......WEARING BLUE AND RED AND GOLD....NOPE TAT'S NOT A BIRD OR A PLANE OR EVEN UNDERDOG.....IT'S DAAAAAAAN-INNNNNNNNNN-MICHIGAAAAAAAAN!")

[dekko13]

Apparently I did miss some questions asked by out friend at UMASS.

Here we go.

First off, I don't know who you are quoting about the 'being on TV issue' and releasing iamge rights but I am quoting our attourney. Who are you quoting? Yourself?

As for the uniform issue, I am not sure why you would want to find a loophole in the rules instead of following the rules but I guess some people are just like that. The people coming to our event are working to get colors on their uniforms to follow the rules and not studing the rules to 'find a way around them.' I have already said that when you show up to fence I would allow your boring uniform with the blue tag on the mask and the maroon socks. I do admit, you will stand out. Maybe not as much as the person in the neon pink uniform but you will stand out none the less. And no, it does not require imagination.

The web site does talk about where the additional prize is coming from but to help those of you out who refuse to find it...
The additional prize money will come from fencing equipment sales directly through us. One of our sponsors has done the same thing with their product line, the Games Workshop product lines, and will give 10% of sales to the additional prize.

As for the timed format, think about this logically for a minute. As mentioned already, the time will be running. The very nature of the running time and the way a tie score is handled really does prevent a slow down outside of fencing actions. I can just as easily slow down the bout by not letting you hit me and that would be more effective than out side of the fencing actions. The fencer who scores the first single valid touch will get the victory in the event of a tie at the end of the 4 minutes. This will cause the fencer who does not get the first touch to come after the opponent even more. It will also cause the fencer who is ahead to at least stay tied and score more touches to cause the opponent to not have a chance to catch up. The rules in place to aloow for penalty cards to be given for delays. And yes, the fixed time is for TV purposes. We could run an event with DE bouts for the final 8 but a great deal of editing would liekly need to be done to fit the fencing into the time purchased.

I am surprised you are a head coach of a university and do not know how an event is seeded. There are more than points involved. Yes, this is not a usfa event but the ratings fencers have earned will be used to seed the pools. I am surprised this is a shock to you but oh well.

The names are not shown to keep you coming back to our website. I can see that is working.

Again, only first place will receive $$$. Second through eighth place will receive very large menacing swords. Better than a medal, plaque or fencer guy trophy.

As mentioned in post number 3, I believe, one of our sponsors does have insurance for injuries. As for the errors and omissions situation, it is in place in case someone, for example, rips off his/her mask after a touch and yells, "All (fill in racial slur here) suck and should go to hell!" I 'suspect' we would edit this out for video distibution however that does not unring the bell at the site itself. Anyone offended by this would not be able to come after the host organization or any of it's sponsors. It also covers any seemingly harmless statement that may be a problem regionally, I don't have an example of this one but I am sure they exist.

Lastly, I am surprised you have so many questions and are trying to rip this apart at every turn when you have no intention of fencing in the event or suporting this is any way shape of form. Don't get me wrong I have had very similar questions from many people in my personal email box and after the questions got answered I received their entry form on the fax machine. You seem to have no interest in having anything to do with this event yet you seem to be very much against it and ask these questions with the intention of ripping this apart and apparently trying to convince people not to participate.

Why is that? I would love to know.

david@usafencing.com

[DanInMI]

Dekko, I have not seen ANYBODY trying to rip this apart. I have seen nothing but very valid questions, but you seem to be very uncomfortable answering them.

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by dekko13


First off, I don't know who you are quoting about the 'being on TV issue' and releasing iamge rights but I am quoting our attourney. Who are you quoting? Yourself?

Ummmmmmm....oiuyt was quoting YOU.

[mtarascio]

I went on the swordmaster webpage and under rules found the following statement:

All these events will have no affiliation or sanctioning by the USFA, all FIE rules will be followed and enforced while FIE equipemnt is not required by the fencers for this event, all FIE rules related to fencing the event will be followed.

It appears to me that FIE rules will not be in force for these events based on what I've read on this forum.

I would love to see Professional fencing in the United States. I believe it is necessary to have all rules, procedures, etc. published prior to fencers signing up for these events so they know what they are getting in to. This is not happening which makes me feel this series will not make it through the first year.

Knowing the coach at U-Mass, I can state he is very knowlegable about fencing, rules, seeding events, etc. He as many fencers on this forum just want answers to simple questions which should have been published in advance.

[darius]

Having followed this thread and the website with interest, I get the general feeling that the folks down in NC have some good ideas, but haven't taken the time to think things through as well as they should be.

Look, we all want to see fencing get more popularity and be on TV, and it's admirable that you guys are trying to do that.

As a spokesperson for your organization, you know that some people are approaching anything to do with Alan very cautiously -- going on the offensive is not the way to endear yourself to the very fencers you're trying to attract.

You've solicited criticism and questions; now deal with that fallout properly -- by asking more questions and taking notes! If somebody has a good idea, don't get defensive...instead, pump them for as many ideas as you can get, and then steal the good ones!

darius

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by dekko13
As for the timed format, think about this logically for a minute. As mentioned already, the time will be running. The very nature of the running time and the way a tie score is handled really does prevent a slow down outside of fencing actions.
[/b]

Think about this logically for a minute, two minutes is to short a time period if you are using a running timeclock. I think that Oiuyt was asking again because this is just such an obviously dumb thing to do.

In a two minute bout there is just too much opportunity to run the clock down. If I am up by one point with 20 seconds to go....the bout is all over baby. (hmmmm perhaps a fleche right off the line.... run way past the other fencer......might take some time to make it back to the line....oop's time's up)

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by dekko13
As for the uniform issue, I am not sure why you would want to find a loophole in the rules instead of following the rules but I guess some people are just like that.

Ummmmm....perhaps Oiuyt (or one of his fencers) would rather not ruin a nice jacket and knickers with spray paint just to fence in your events.

[oiuyt]

Originally posted by dekko13
Apparently I did miss some questions asked by out friend at UMASS.

Here we go.

As for the uniform issue, I am not sure why you would want to find a loophole in the rules instead of following the rules

I'd be significantly more likely to come to an event if it didn't require my purchasing a new set of kit. Now that I've been assured that my uniform, which conforms with your arbitrary rules, will be allowed, that's one fewer issue I need to worry about.

The web site does talk about where the additional prize is coming from but to help those of you out who refuse to find it...
The additional prize money will come from fencing equipment sales directly through us. One of our sponsors has done the same thing with their product line, the Games Workshop product lines, and will give 10% of sales to the additional prize.

I assume you mean the following paragraph:

Some of the sponsors are commited to professional fencing. The sponsors on the list below are going to give 10% of their online/mailorder sales to insure it takes off. When you make a purchase from one let them know you are supporting the Swordmasters Series and they will make sure part of the sale goes to support professional fencing.

Which is on a page that links off of the frontpage but not off of the navigation bar on any other page. I certainly didn't take this paragraph to mean what you are saying, namely that the prize, prominently billed as $1000, would actually be $1125 because of this policy. Do they give 10% of all sales, or 10% of sales to people that mention the series?

As for the timed format, think about this logically for a minute. As mentioned already, the time will be running. The very nature of the running time and the way a tie score is handled really does prevent a slow down outside of fencing actions. I can just as easily slow down the bout by not letting you hit me and that would be more effective than out side of the fencing actions. The fencer who scores the first single valid touch will get the victory in the event of a tie at the end of the 4 minutes. This will cause the fencer who does not get the first touch to come after the opponent even more. It will also cause the fencer who is ahead to at least stay tied and score more touches to cause the opponent to not have a chance to catch up. The rules in place to aloow for penalty cards to be given for delays. And yes, the fixed time is for TV purposes. We could run an event with DE bouts for the final 8 but a great deal of editing would liekly need to be done to fit the fencing into the time purchased.

Uhm.... let's say the score is 3-1 and a blade breaks. How much time goes off the clock before fencing gets restarted? If you REALLY think that it's easier to prevent touches being scored while the action is going on by "not letting you hit me" than while it's not....

The fencer who scores the first single valid touch will get the victory in the event of a tie at the end of the 4 minutes.

REALLY.... Checking my FIE rules I seem to have missed this one.... Checking your website, nope, not there either. How many other rules like this are going to be added? When will people find out about them? This isn't just a format issue, this changes the nature of how one fences.

I am surprised you are a head coach of a university and do not know how an event is seeded. There are more than points involved. Yes, this is not a usfa event but the ratings fencers have earned will be used to seed the pools. I am surprised this is a shock to you but oh well.

I asked how YOUR event was seeded. The USFA uses different seeding methods for different events. The FIE uses a different one yet. Most countries have some slight variant of their own. In reply to my question you stated that you would use the FIE method. Now you say that you'll use USFA ratings. You're the designated point of contact for a series of tournaments. I would say that I'm surprised that you don't know how your own tournaments will be run, but in this case I'm really not.

The names are not shown to keep you coming back to our website. I can see that is working.

No, I rather trusted you on your stated intention not to reveal the names until 8/1. My returning to your site has nothing to do with that.

Lastly, I am surprised you have so many questions and are trying to rip this apart at every turn when you have no intention of fencing in the event or suporting this is any way shape of form. Don't get me wrong I have had very similar questions from many people in my personal email box and after the questions got answered I received their entry form on the fax machine. You seem to have no interest in having anything to do with this event yet you seem to be very much against it and ask these questions with the intention of ripping this apart and apparently trying to convince people not to participate.

Why is that? I would love to know.

If it sounds like I'm trying to rip it apart it's merely that my questions have pointed out things that either haven't been explained as they should, or are pointing out suggestions for how to improve what you're doing. I would love for fencing to get more airtime. I would love for fencing to get enough followers that professionals could make a living off of prizes. Or even pay for their fencing habit. As part of that I'll try to help improve your efforts. I think that you will have a major problem getting entries after the first two events. This is simply based on the fact that I know few people that would be willing to pay $75 to fence what is likely to be a local event without significant other redeeming qualities. K, having the swords to 8th place is a nice touch in that direction, that while noticing I hadn't given much credit to. Still doesn't change my opinion much. It might take until the 4th event and $100 entry fees before it slackens fencer enthusiasm.

I could go on further elaborating on what I have been doing and why, but DanInMI, mtarascio, and darius have all done that for me. Interesting that they all got it and you didn't. Understandable though. You're close to this and feel that it's part of your position to defend it. Having flaws pointed out CAN be interpreted as attacks. That wasn't my intention however.

Please read Darius's post. He sums up what I've been feeling fairly well, and perhaps coming from someone who hasn't been asking tons of questions and pointing out flaws it'll be more easily accepted.

-B :)

[Craig]

I am surprised you are a head coach of a university and do not know how an event is seeded. There are more than points involved. Yes, this is not a usfa event but the ratings fencers have earned will be used to seed the pools. I am surprised this is a shock to you but oh well.

What "oiuyt" was referring to here is that you stated that the event would be seeded according to the FIE rules. In FIE seeding, there are no A's, B's, C's, etc. - there are only FIE points earned at WC events. According to FIE seeding procedures, if you don't have WC points, then you will be randomly placed in the pools.

What several people are trying to figure out is what the real ruleset it. Given that epee fencers in general are the most nitpicky people I've found regarding rules, it would follow that you would want these rules to be nailed down and published before running an event. On this thread there is the impression that rules are shifting - First it was "all FIE rules will be in effect" which almost everyone interpreted as "direct elimination table" and then the final pool of 8 comes out. That's different than the FIE ruleset for running a tournament, so people want to know what are the full rules that will be in place for the event.


Unrelated to that, I've got a question about how this will play out for the TV audience. You've stated that the bout formats/time/etc. are set up the way that they are in order to minimize the editing needed. That's fine. Are you going to alter the bout order for the final pool then to make sure that the final match shown is one that actually means something? There isn't a very compelling reason to watch the last bout in a pool if it is between two people with records of 1-5 and 0-6. I think that's why we went to DE's in the first place, to make sure that the final bout of the day truly meant something.

Thanks for sticking with the thread and answering all of our questions. As with anything new or different, you should expect there to be a lot of questions and comments.


Cheers,
Craig

[CarlKnoch]

As someone from the outside, and someone who doesn't know the guy who started this long ago, I have to say it looks a bit silly at this point.

I agree with everyone who says that they want to see fencing on TV, but this isn't fencing. It's something less than fencing in my mind. I hate to say it but I think that Dan is correct about it having the feel of battlebots.

When you look at professional sports, they are normally modelled after the amatuer sport they came from at first, and this isn't the case here. It seems like you are taking the rules and trying to make them more appealing to the masses, so why not go all the way and fence with sharpened swords? First blood wins? Isn't that what most of the average stupid americans out there would want to see?

That's not what I want people to think of fencing. Fencing is better than that. That's just my opinion.

[noodle]

As for the uniform issue, I am not sure why you would want to find a loophole in the rules instead of following the rules but I guess some people are just like that.

the reason i don't want to follow the rules is this: i don't want to mess up my own pretty white fie uniform, which i love dearly, nor do i want to purchase a new one. the 'get a sponsor to fund you' option is nigh impossible. not everyone interested lives in charlotte, nor do they have the time to research and scout out a sponsor online. doing that type of business is best in person. and since this competition is in the charlotte area and only on a charlotte cable access channel, i doubt everyone else's home towns will be willing to sponsor them for foriegn airtime.

Image waivers are not necessary due to the fact that to the top 8 will definately be on TV and not may be on TV and they know that going in, there is no image to steal.

the more you say that, print it on fliers, put it on the website, post it here, and not require a waiver to be signed, the more you're opening yourself up to someone who would get top 8 and say "but i didn't know" and ruin everything, intentionally or otherwise. a waiver would take a few seconds to be read and signed; it would guarantee your organization's safety. do waivers.

The web site does talk about where the additional prize is coming from but to help those of you out who refuse to find it...

i'm a professional web designer. hint: making the end user "find" the vital content is a bad idea. lay it all out for us, all end users are idiots.

The additional prize money will come from fencing equipment sales directly through us. One of our sponsors has done the same thing with their product line, the Games Workshop product lines, and will give 10% of sales to the additional prize.

i would suggest giving this to the 2nd place winner. i'm pretty sure it'll be the closest thing we'd get to having a distributed pot.

Again, only first place will receive $$$. Second through eighth place will receive very large menacing swords. Better than a medal, plaque or fencer guy trophy.

when money is involved, trinkets mean nothing (at least, to me).

I am surprised you have so many questions and are trying to rip this apart at every turn when you have no intention of fencing in the event or suporting this is any way shape of form.

most of us aren't trying to rip this apart. these are serious questions that haven't been dealt with or, apparently, thoroughly answered. it seems to