Our first experience at Nationals

I have to say Our first experience at Nationals was a very positive one.

Great people!

Great time!

I saw some miscommunications, however it did not directly involve my son.

I am not saying it was right, I did see people waiting and waiting. It, in
my opinion, is easy to become very critical, however the greater challenge
is to HELP come up with a solution.

Well here are my suggestions

I suggest that each section of strips be assigned a volunteer. ( If they
were there, they were not very visible and should be made more visible-
fluorescent orange!

I would suggest that the volunteers be given walkie talkies, to communicate
what strips are open to the administrators. Hopefully this would keep the
flow going.

I watched a senior 50-59 foil event run at least an hour over and one
section of the veteran's 60+ epee had to wait while the other epee's strips
were in action and then had to wait for the first strip to finish, when
there was at least three open strips very near by.


I would suggest that when the DE's begin to condense, they move together To
one end of the enclosure- example during one epee' event, there were 1 epee'
then two foil, the one epee' and then two foil. why not move the epee
strips next to each other? they will condense to area that will encourage
the viewing of matches. I suggest that keeping the events closer to the same
area- not strips 10-11 and 47-48. this would encourage the spectators to
continue watching.

As I see it now fencing is for the fencers, not for the spectators.

One question, That I did have- Why weren't more finals moved to the center
strips, with the grandstands? Spectator friendly! Whether it is Cadet
saber or Division 1 Foil Every final match deserves the respect of center
stage.

As for the referees, this issue is somewhat confusing. I am a former rugby
referee and evaluator that traveled territorially for 10 years. I can
understand the uniqueness of many of the situations becoming and remaining a
good ref. However I saw something's that did I question. I saw one referee
( also a coach) just giving a newer referee HELL!. I would never dishonor
the blazer, the uniform, the whistle, to do that in front of the
contestants. If there was a problem, Talk about it after the match.
Confusing the issue more during the match I do not feel is acceptable.

As for the training of new refs, Could it be done as many other sports- new
refs go to lower divisions and younger competitors. The 16, 19 and above the
competitions seems to get going so very fast it would be difficult to train
anyone properly.

In the US rugby community, we developed evaluators. After each match, the
trainer would help the new ref to understand the pluses and minuses of their
matches. As we train the athletes , we must train the refs. As we found out
in Rugby, just because they have an foreign accent does not mean the are a
good player, good coach or a good ref. I am not saying that is the case in
all refs, coaches, just in a few that I saw.
In the Rugby community we found that once the refereeing standards began to
improve, then the play then followed. It seems absurd, to believe that the
play can or will improve, before the refereeing standards improve IMO.
We policed ourselves and tried to make ourselves more spectator friendly,
You are now seeing more and more rugby, in commercials, on TV- It is
becoming User friendly. Every one got a kick out of the Mercedes commercial
that has gone around the net- with a fencing segment.
I now have seen some awesome athletes- fencers- that are deserving the
limelight. We ( excuse me, I am new but I now consider myself becoming part
of this community) must package ourselves so that we get these athletes on
TV at least ESPN 2! In the past I might not have known the intensity or
competative nature of the fencers, but NOW, If I still played rugby, I would
love to have a lot of the athletes I saw in Austin, on my Team, In my
company, In my school.

My hat is off to all of you! I think you doing a wonderful job producing
great athletes.

"C-Sports" <csports@epconline.com> wrote in
news:bZednXMgqL2pW5CiU-KYgg@accessus.net:

> I have to say Our first experience at Nationals was a very positive
> one.

Glad to hear it!

> I would suggest that the volunteers be given walkie talkies, to
> communicate what strips are open to the administrators. Hopefully
> this would keep the flow going.
>
> I watched a senior 50-59 foil event run at least an hour over and
> one section of the veteran's 60+ epee had to wait while the other
> epee's strips were in action and then had to wait for the first
> strip to finish, when there was at least three open strips very
> near by.

I think that the bottleneck was not lack of strips per se, but lack of
referees. As I said in my own Nationals report, I found the incredible
delays to be inexcusable - I do expect *some* slippage toward the end
of the day, but honestly, I think we're doing ourselves a disservice
if we come to think of 2, 3, or 4 hour delays as somehow normal.

But apart from that, I don't think that having "extra" open strips is
symptomatic of a problem by themselves. In fact, it's a *good* thing
to have some open strips at all times. For one thing, the fencers need
somewhere to warm up. For another thing, the pools (and DEs) need to
be able to relocate quickly if a serious problem should arise with the
strip they're on.

> I would suggest that when the DE's begin to condense, they move
> together

Well... I see your point, but moving the fencers makes it difficult in
a different way for the spectators. On any given day, I might have
several different friends competing, so I try to move around and cheer
for them all at different times. That means I need to be able to
*find* them at any time. With the current system, I can look at the
posted DE strip assignments and go there - if they were moving the
strips around, I wouldn't know where to go (unless they updated the
strip assignment postings, which would be a lot of extra work). Heck,
it was bad enough when a DE that I was *in* kept switching strips (I
still don't know why exactly) - I was worried that I'd miss watching
bouts I should be watching, because I didn't know where everyone was
supposed to be.

> One question, That I did have- Why weren't more finals moved to the
> center strips, with the grandstands? Spectator friendly! Whether
> it is Cadet saber or Division 1 Foil Every final match deserves the
> respect of center stage.

Yes, that would have been nice.

> It, in my opinion, is easy to become very critical, however the
> greater challenge is to HELP come up with a solution.

The organizational issues can only be solved at the top of the food
chain, so to speak, at the USFA. But I've found that individual
fencers indeed can help make events like Nationals go more smoothly,
by actively trying to be "on the ball".

For instance, the biggest help that fencers can give to the referees
is to KNOW WHEN YOU ARE ON DECK! The pools run sooooo much more
quickly when the next set of fencers is on their feet and getting
ready as soon as the previous bout is over. When I'm done with a bout,
I always hold the reel cord for the next fencer, and when I'm heading
up to a bout, I jump up as soon as it's my turn. Oddly enough, I
observed that almost all *sabre* fencers are super-quick on the ball,
but the *foil* fencers that I saw were much, much slower - often
waiting until their names were called before they went up, not holding
the cord for the next person, etc.

I also try to be observant and helpful if possible. At one point last
week, I noticed that a strip that I was warming up on had a hole in
it. I went right away to the Bout Committee and let them know - and a
technician was sent out to fix it right away. Much better that the
strip got fixed *before* a pool started on it, rather than having the
referee discover it when he got there and have to delay the pool while
it was fixed.

On a positive note, as far as I could tell, most of the "support"
people (parents, coaches) were on good behavior this year ;-) Last
year I saw a lot of parents getting a bit out of hand - crowding the
strips, bothering the refs - but this year (perhaps aided by the setup
of the strips) I didn't see that. I did see a lot of people enjoying
themselves :-)

Cheers,
Holly

In article <Xns93B4A8F9421CF5439754hjkgfdjio5408@206.127.4.25 >,
"Holly E. Ordway" <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote:

> When I'm done with a bout,
> I always hold the reel cord for the next fencer, and when I'm heading
> up to a bout, I jump up as soon as it's my turn. Oddly enough, I
> observed that almost all *sabre* fencers are super-quick on the ball,
> but the *foil* fencers that I saw were much, much slower - often
> waiting until their names were called before they went up, not holding
> the cord for the next person, etc.


That's because saber bouts take so much longer than foil bouts that the
saber fencers have learned they need to be on the ball to get the event
done in a reasonable time frame! :-)

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> wrote in
news:no_one_knows-A9EF0A.17454810072003@news.comcast.giganews.com:

> That's because saber bouts take so much longer than foil bouts that
> the saber fencers have learned they need to be on the ball to get
> the event done in a reasonable time frame! :-)

Heheheh.

Another theory might be that sabre fencers are so eager to get into
the "fight" that they just can't wait any longer :-) Grrrr... lemme at
'er!

On a tangent: I teach fencing (foil) at a summer camp - really basic
stuff, as this is an all-purpose arts/crafts/sports type camp and I
only get the kids for two sessions a week. Anyway, when I went to work
on the Monday after Nationals, I brought a couple of my own weapons in
(as I'd promised the kids earlier). After being deluged with "Did you
win? Did you win?" by little piping voices, I brought out my sabre to
show them. Universal response:

"Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"

Somehow the sabre just seemed to have a higher coolness factor than
the foil - although they were impressed by the full-sized electric
foil as well. :-) What can I say? The kids have good taste

--Holly

P.S. I've definitely seen a "trickle up" effect from this teaching of
low-level recreational fencing - I've always thought it was a good
idea even to just expose lots of kids to the idea of fencing as a
sport (I get to see hundreds of kids over the course of the summer,
times 5 years... that's a reasonable number of kids!), but in addition
to that I've seen several kids start taking classes at local clubs...
and of course, they'll tell their friends, etc...

In article <Xns93B4C60DA90505439754hjkgfdjio5408@206.127.4.25 >,
"Holly E. Ordway" <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote:

>
> P.S. I've definitely seen a "trickle up" effect from this teaching of
> low-level recreational fencing - I've always thought it was a good
> idea even to just expose lots of kids to the idea of fencing as a
> sport (I get to see hundreds of kids over the course of the summer,
> times 5 years... that's a reasonable number of kids!), but in addition
> to that I've seen several kids start taking classes at local clubs...
> and of course, they'll tell their friends, etc...


I teach two summer camps (5 days each, 4 hours per day) at the school
where I coach, and every other year I do a demo at assembly for the
middle school. We also occasionally do a demo at a basketball game.
We've gone from a low of 6 kids on the team about 7 years ago to a
expected group of about 25 for next year. I think the extra exposure
made a *huge* difference.



--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

"Holly E. Ordway" <> wrote in message > I think that the bottleneck was not
lack of strips per se, but lack of
> referees. As I said in my own Nationals report, I found the incredible
> delays to be inexcusable - I do expect *some* slippage toward the end
> of the day, but honestly, I think we're doing ourselves a disservice
> if we come to think of 2, 3, or 4 hour delays as somehow normal.
>
> But apart from that, I don't think that having "extra" open strips is
> symptomatic of a problem by themselves. In fact, it's a *good* thing
> to have some open strips at all times. For one thing, the fencers need
> somewhere to warm up. For another thing, the pools (and DEs) need to
> be able to relocate quickly if a serious problem should arise with the
> strip they're on.
>
> > I would suggest that when the DE's begin to condense, they move
> > together
>
> Well... I see your point, but moving the fencers makes it difficult in
> a different way for the spectators. On any given day, I might have
> several different friends competing, so I try to move around and cheer
> for them all at different times. That means I need to be able to
> *find* them at any time. With the current system, I can look at the
> posted DE strip assignments and go there - if they were moving the
> strips around, I wouldn't know where to go (unless they updated the
> strip assignment postings, which would be a lot of extra work). Heck,
> it was bad enough when a DE that I was *in* kept switching strips (I
> still don't know why exactly) - I was worried that I'd miss watching
> bouts I should be watching, because I didn't know where everyone was
> supposed to be.
>

When I meant condense, What I was trying to say- If there are Four strips in
a section (Sorry for the senior moment, I can't remember) , label sections
a, b, c,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,M,N, 13 sections and so one. when you condense,
Condense within the section, move to an open strip within the section.

I wonder if there was a real lack of refs or was it improper usage of the
refs time- because of overruns?

"C-Sports" <csports@epconline.com> wrote in
news:bZednXMgqL2pW5CiU-KYgg@accessus.net:

> I have to say Our first experience at Nationals was a very positive
> one.

Glad to hear it!

> I would suggest that the volunteers be given walkie talkies, to
> communicate what strips are open to the administrators. Hopefully
> this would keep the flow going.
>
> I watched a senior 50-59 foil event run at least an hour over and
> one section of the veteran's 60+ epee had to wait while the other
> epee's strips were in action and then had to wait for the first
> strip to finish, when there was at least three open strips very
> near by.

I think that the bottleneck was not lack of strips per se, but lack of
referees. As I said in my own Nationals report, I found the incredible
delays to be inexcusable - I do expect *some* slippage toward the end
of the day, but honestly, I think we're doing ourselves a disservice
if we come to think of 2, 3, or 4 hour delays as somehow normal.

But apart from that, I don't think that having "extra" open strips is
symptomatic of a problem by themselves. In fact, it's a *good* thing
to have some open strips at all times. For one thing, the fencers need
somewhere to warm up. For another thing, the pools (and DEs) need to
be able to relocate quickly if a serious problem should arise with the
strip they're on.

> I would suggest that when the DE's begin to condense, they move
> together

Well... I see your point, but moving the fencers makes it difficult in
a different way for the spectators. On any given day, I might have
several different friends competing, so I try to move around and cheer
for them all at different times. That means I need to be able to
*find* them at any time. With the current system, I can look at the
posted DE strip assignments and go there - if they were moving the
strips around, I wouldn't know where to go (unless they updated the
strip assignment postings, which would be a lot of extra work). Heck,
it was bad enough when a DE that I was *in* kept switching strips (I
still don't know why exactly) - I was worried that I'd miss watching
bouts I should be watching, because I didn't know where everyone was
supposed to be.

> One question, That I did have- Why weren't more finals moved to the
> center strips, with the grandstands? Spectator friendly! Whether
> it is Cadet saber or Division 1 Foil Every final match deserves the
> respect of center stage.

Yes, that would have been nice.

> It, in my opinion, is easy to become very critical, however the
> greater challenge is to HELP come up with a solution.

The organizational issues can only be solved at the top of the food
chain, so to speak, at the USFA. But I've found that individual
fencers indeed can help make events like Nationals go more smoothly,
by actively trying to be "on the ball".

For instance, the biggest help that fencers can give to the referees
is to KNOW WHEN YOU ARE ON DECK! The pools run sooooo much more
quickly when the next set of fencers is on their feet and getting
ready as soon as the previous bout is over. When I'm done with a bout,
I always hold the reel cord for the next fencer, and when I'm heading
up to a bout, I jump up as soon as it's my turn. Oddly enough, I
observed that almost all *sabre* fencers are super-quick on the ball,
but the *foil* fencers that I saw were much, much slower - often
waiting until their names were called before they went up, not holding
the cord for the next person, etc.

I also try to be observant and helpful if possible. At one point last
week, I noticed that a strip that I was warming up on had a hole in
it. I went right away to the Bout Committee and let them know - and a
technician was sent out to fix it right away. Much better that the
strip got fixed *before* a pool started on it, rather than having the
referee discover it when he got there and have to delay the pool while
it was fixed.

On a positive note, as far as I could tell, most of the "support"
people (parents, coaches) were on good behavior this year ;-) Last
year I saw a lot of parents getting a bit out of hand - crowding the
strips, bothering the refs - but this year (perhaps aided by the setup
of the strips) I didn't see that. I did see a lot of people enjoying
themselves :-)

Cheers,
Holly

In article <Xns93B4A8F9421CF5439754hjkgfdjio5408@206.127.4.25 >,
"Holly E. Ordway" <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote:

> When I'm done with a bout,
> I always hold the reel cord for the next fencer, and when I'm heading
> up to a bout, I jump up as soon as it's my turn. Oddly enough, I
> observed that almost all *sabre* fencers are super-quick on the ball,
> but the *foil* fencers that I saw were much, much slower - often
> waiting until their names were called before they went up, not holding
> the cord for the next person, etc.


That's because saber bouts take so much longer than foil bouts that the
saber fencers have learned they need to be on the ball to get the event
done in a reasonable time frame! :-)

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> wrote in
news:no_one_knows-A9EF0A.17454810072003@news.comcast.giganews.com:

> That's because saber bouts take so much longer than foil bouts that
> the saber fencers have learned they need to be on the ball to get
> the event done in a reasonable time frame! :-)

Heheheh.

Another theory might be that sabre fencers are so eager to get into
the "fight" that they just can't wait any longer :-) Grrrr... lemme at
'er!

On a tangent: I teach fencing (foil) at a summer camp - really basic
stuff, as this is an all-purpose arts/crafts/sports type camp and I
only get the kids for two sessions a week. Anyway, when I went to work
on the Monday after Nationals, I brought a couple of my own weapons in
(as I'd promised the kids earlier). After being deluged with "Did you
win? Did you win?" by little piping voices, I brought out my sabre to
show them. Universal response:

"Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"

Somehow the sabre just seemed to have a higher coolness factor than
the foil - although they were impressed by the full-sized electric
foil as well. :-) What can I say? The kids have good taste

--Holly

P.S. I've definitely seen a "trickle up" effect from this teaching of
low-level recreational fencing - I've always thought it was a good
idea even to just expose lots of kids to the idea of fencing as a
sport (I get to see hundreds of kids over the course of the summer,
times 5 years... that's a reasonable number of kids!), but in addition
to that I've seen several kids start taking classes at local clubs...
and of course, they'll tell their friends, etc...

"Holly E. Ordway" <> wrote in message > I think that the bottleneck was not
lack of strips per se, but lack of
> referees. As I said in my own Nationals report, I found the incredible
> delays to be inexcusable - I do expect *some* slippage toward the end
> of the day, but honestly, I think we're doing ourselves a disservice
> if we come to think of 2, 3, or 4 hour delays as somehow normal.
>
> But apart from that, I don't think that having "extra" open strips is
> symptomatic of a problem by themselves. In fact, it's a *good* thing
> to have some open strips at all times. For one thing, the fencers need
> somewhere to warm up. For another thing, the pools (and DEs) need to
> be able to relocate quickly if a serious problem should arise with the
> strip they're on.
>
> > I would suggest that when the DE's begin to condense, they move
> > together
>
> Well... I see your point, but moving the fencers makes it difficult in
> a different way for the spectators. On any given day, I might have
> several different friends competing, so I try to move around and cheer
> for them all at different times. That means I need to be able to
> *find* them at any time. With the current system, I can look at the
> posted DE strip assignments and go there - if they were moving the
> strips around, I wouldn't know where to go (unless they updated the
> strip assignment postings, which would be a lot of extra work). Heck,
> it was bad enough when a DE that I was *in* kept switching strips (I
> still don't know why exactly) - I was worried that I'd miss watching
> bouts I should be watching, because I didn't know where everyone was
> supposed to be.
>

When I meant condense, What I was trying to say- If there are Four strips in
a section (Sorry for the senior moment, I can't remember) , label sections
a, b, c,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,M,N, 13 sections and so one. when you condense,
Condense within the section, move to an open strip within the section.

I wonder if there was a real lack of refs or was it improper usage of the
refs time- because of overruns?