Proffesional Fencing league... For Money!

[CvilleFencer]

I just found out about this group. It sounds great to me, and I love the goal of televised fencing and increased public awareness of the sport. Does anyone else have any thoughts or experience with the group?

Check them out at: http://www.swordmasterseries.com/index.html

[veeco]

Interesting. Same guy than the PFL, but the plan seems kinda different. The PFL required people to pay a lot of money to register to events and to subscribe to the PFL IIRC, and it was trying to go big from the beginning. Apparently this is much smaller and more focused.

I'd love to see how this evolves and if it works out.

Of course, with the requirements they have on uniforms, I'm pretty sure Inquartata will not enter (they require at least 3 different colors on your uniform and it cannot be all white ;-)

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by veeco
Of course, with the requirements they have on uniforms, I'm pretty sure Inquartata will not enter (they require at least 3 different colors on your uniform and it cannot be all white ;-)

On the contrary I think he should be dragged there kicking and screaming, chained down stripside with his eyelids glued open, and forced to observe the pageantry of Foil and Epee in all its glory wonderful Technicolor glory! Then set him loose, toss some paint on his kit, and let him terrorize the Saber event!

Maybe we could even get the MTV folks to broadcast it!

[Craig]

At first glance, it looks like some of the same people from the PFL are involved. We'll see how this goes. According to their site, Alan's learned a lot from his last foray and thinks he can make it work this time around.


Craig

[wflaschka]

Looks quite interesting. Money purses could do a lot for the sport. I've always been jealous of tennis and golf players, how they can visit any unknown po-dunk tournament and win a $10,000 purse.

Judging by their traffic meter, the site officially launched today/yesterday. AND, they only reference Epee... is this the only weapon? (AND, the coach download link is broken... yummy coach money?)

Can anybody summarize how fencing for $$ might hurt a young fencer who wants to make teams? I know, from this thread, that the USFA is nominally okay with it. Except, the USFA contradicts itself on its website, cite: It's interesting to note that the USFA website has a "Policy on Professionals" which does not seem to agree with the general opinion of the board.

Anyway, I hope the PFL can pull it off this time!

[Craig]

Rulings on professionals:

If your fencers want to compete at the NCAA level, then they can't accept a cash or in kind prize. There are exceptions for "grant awards" where the award goes to defray the costs of training, but there are specific paperwork requirements that you would have to go through; not sure of the details on those.

As to the USFA, it seems like they have a relaxed stance, but I guess we'll have to wait for an official ruling on that since there is conflicting documentation.

Craig

[nahouw]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer
I just found out about this group. It sounds great to me, and I love the goal of televised fencing and increased public awareness of the sport. Does anyone else have any thoughts or experience with the group?

Check them out at: http://www.swordmasterseries.com/index.html

This is Alan Blakeborough part 2. He has a better website than the last incarnation of the PFL; I don't know how the USFA will feel about his use of info@usafencing.com -- but then again, the USFA apparently didn't think to resister this domain.

We really need Eric to comment on this -- he was involved with the last incarnation and can shed more light on this incarnation.

Alan's business plan reads that the purpose of this venture is to create videos for individual use and media marketing purposes. The USFA has its own promotional videos, as well as the videos that were produced in conjunction with the NYC 2012 Olympic bid committee -- these videos haven't gotten much play on TV stations. Fencing Footage does a good business selling tapes of World Championships, Olympics and World Cups, but how big would be a market for videos from his venture, and who are the fencers that he is attracting to his events?

His business plan also highlights that his idea has criticism from both USFA and FIE; his statement of rules says that neither the USFA nor the FIE has sanctioned these events, but all FIE rules will be enforced, except for FIE equipment requirements, and then in only Epee that the FIE rules will be enforced.

He is offering nice prizes -- I think that the most I ever saw offered in an FIE Grand Prix event was $1500.

I don't understand why he has on the website a contract for the coaches for their fair share cut between the coach and the fencer -- he is not part of it, and specifies that the PFL doesn't ratify it -- then what is the purpose for it?

His business plan also states that it costs $50,000 for television production of an event. He states that both Bank of America and Time Warner Cable were sponsors of an event he had held, but neither are listed on his sponsors page.

He states that one of the lessons that he learned was to start on a smaller scale. I don't see that Charlotte, NC, a major city in NC is a smaller venue than Saratoga Springs, NY, a small upstate community.

We really need to hear from Eric -- there were many creditors looking to find Alan after the first incarnation failed, and I would be curious to know if all creditors were retributed after the last incarnation.

[Alpha03]

i dont think it will work. wasnt it tried before but the leader guy ended up just running away with the money?

[oiuyt]

wflaschka- Prize money can cause all KINDS of problems for younger fencers. Most (all?) state high school athletics association bar professionals. The NCAA bars professionals. If a fencer gets money s/he is running a high risk of not being able to compete in HS or college. How high a risk and what is being risked (eg does being a professional in one sport (fencing) bar an athlete from competing on an NCAA team in another (swimming)?) REALLY has to be left to experts. Talk to the NCAA compliance officer at Ole Miss if you want more details. That should at least get you the NCAA answer. Find the state equivalent for answers about HS eligibility.

General thoughts on the Swordmaster Series:

The entry fees (assuming that he gets his full fields of 40 people) will exactly cover the prize money. Presumably he's counting on sponsor money in order to cover all other costs. And relying on never having less than full fields.

(According to his website) He has a weekly show on Time-Warner channel 58 (I'm assuming that this is a community access channel where such shows are free to broadcast).

LOTS of bits that aren't explained very well (there's some sort of pre-qualification tournament on Saturdays but no explaination that mentions what the purpose is or how it's used, etc.). Entry fees increase proportionately with the prize money. Ie for the tournament that offers a $3000 prize the entry fee is $75 instead of $25 for the tournament that offers $1000.

With the exception that he seems to be looking more for a "Knights of the Round Table" theme than the "Comicbook Characters" theme of the PFL, and the reduction to just epee, his presentation looks remarkably similar. This time seems less targetted at signing up good/elite fencers. The tone of most of the site is very similar to the tone he used when running the PFL. As noted by someone above, this time he's requiring multi-colored uniforms which reduces the easy ability of the good/elite USFA fencers to enter his events without a greater initial outlay of money. Also unlike the PFL, the Swordmaster Series appears to only give money to the winner rather than a tiered prize structure to all entrants.

It'll be interesting to see whether or not money is actually awarded this time. My understanding of the first incarnation was that at least some prize money was given out after the first competition, but none for the remaining 7 before it folded completely. Lots of stories about lack of payment for referees in the PFL as well, and I was present when Amanda of BG confronted Alan about the lack of payment that they had received for the significant amounts of equipment that had been sold to the PFL. This time does appear to be on a smaller scale-- only 1 weapon, prizes only to the winner. Whether or not enough sponsor money will come in to cover the expenses is a glaring question in my opinion.

Alan's trackrecord is not one to insprire confidence. That said, I hope it works. If he had sabre I might even be tempted to try to go to one of the tournaments. I'd have been more tempted if he were still in this area and I could just drive a couple of hours, but...

At the very least he IS trying new things. While I can see arguments that this isn't all good (What if he very publically gets fencing associated with WWE-style coverage that drowns out coverage of USFA fencing? Will fencing in the US end up the way wrestling is?), he IS trying to move the sport in the direction that he sees as the future.

-B :)

[oiuyt]

Originally posted by Alpha03
i dont think it will work. wasnt it tried before but the leader guy ended up just running away with the money?

This is being run by the same guy.
-B :)

[Alpha03]

you trick me once- shame on you
you trick me twice- shame on me

this guy must be hella slick to try it again

[frenzl]

i think they should ecourage this because it would increase the popularity, but of course i'm sure that the money involved would not be a tremendous amount.

[rukovsoft]

trust me on this one..i went to a competition like that in france ..they said it was for non div1 fencers....and they had more than 700$ in price (which is a lot for france)...nice flyers, nice locations, more ads than a national circuit...

a lot of ranked fencers showed up, and the general ambient of the competition was terrible...lots of people yelling, *****ing at the refs, unsportmanship...this was last year. this year it was even worse. it was a team event...they refused the registration of a lot of temas, and the ambient was even worse from what i ve heard...

money can be corrupting. you ll find some morrons ready to lie, and show unsportmanship just to get a few hunderds bucks...

as a y12, y10 referess i saw a kid, yelling everytime he would hit the floor (and i say every time) to try to get the touch, and would contest toe touch by opponents on the foot...and the kid was 14 i think...

i ve benn coaching at a div1 NCAA fencing program for 2 years...i really belive that most of the NCAA rules applied to fencing are meaningless...but i must say that ncaa is right to be strict one the professional aspect...if you earn money, you shouldn t be eligible.
same for some sports at the olympics that should be considered professional (hockey, tennis...), so against the olympic spirit...

if one kid gets a single prize from a competition from this league, he might not be able TO FENCE IN NCAA FENCING IN COLLEGE!!!

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer
I think he should be dragged there kicking and screaming, chained down stripside with his eyelids glued open, and forced to observe the pageantry of Foil and Epee in all its glory wonderful Technicolor glory! Then set him loose, toss some paint on his kit, and let him terrorize the Saber event!

Maybe we could even get the MTV folks to broadcast it!

I already have my three colors picked out: ivory, eggshell and ecru.

[veeco]

Originally posted by Inquartata
I already have my three colors picked out: ivory, eggshell and ecru.

White doesn't look gay, but now those colors do ;-).

[Dragonfly]

Well, in the real world there is 8 billion people veeco, and many of them are gay, unless you meant the word happy, or cheerful as I used to mean, or my cousins name for example, which is seldom given to newborns anymore. The point is, "are you nice"?

Professional league, it would be better for fencers to wait until they're very sure it won't disqualify them from other opportunities before then jump in. Any other prize money that a fencer has received in the past from a promoter should just be water under the bridge, lots of students don't know this. It's an interesting thing, because a group could make a very prestigious award in the future and their rules could exclude anyone who has won prize money. But again, some of it is so old, it hardly matters.

But it's pretty clear that nowadays, the Cups and Olympic teams don't care whether or not a fencer has received prize money.

It should be like football in a way, and why not. When you stop to consider how much money is thrown away on football a sport in which men basicaly ram into each other chase each other on a playing field, jump on the quarterback, and run away with a little ball over a line, it's criminal. People go bananas for football, including myself, planning their evenings around monday night football and buying everything their sponsors mention.

Fencers wouldn't have to behave differently, any more than a golfer feels the need to scream, bark or give high fives over a birdie. It's very possible to have your college fencer, your local competitive fencer and local salles, and be very happy, pursuing careers in business, such as private salles.

[R. Exnicios]

I had some limited experience with the PLF years.

The concept is interesting but the plan is vague at best. Professional sports association are run by professional business and marketing folks and have HUGE startup financing.

I don't do this normally but I'll pull out the resume for a second.

I have a specialization in sports law and am a licensed sports lawyer.

I would advise people to be careful and well informed before jumping on board with the PFL and declaring themselves a "professional." Most of the goals could be achieved without a separate organization and the “professional” designation.

It would be nice if it worked.

Cheers

[rory]

This "professional" thing.
I understand that in NCAA (and highscholl? Jeez!) professionals are disallowed. However, non-student fencers shouldn't have any problem.

Your USFA can't have the slightest problem with professional fencers competing, as fencing has been open to professionals at the Olympics since the inception of the Games
(it's the only sport that's always allowed pros to enter the Games) - indeed a very high proportion of European elite fencers
are sponsored to such an extent that they are "professional".

Excluding these people from USFA tournaments should they choose to enter would be utterly ridiculous.

[veeco]

Originally posted by rory
Your USFA can't have the slightest problem with professional fencers competing, as fencing has been open to professionals at the Olympics since the inception of the Games
(it's the only sport that's always allowed pros to enter the Games)

Yes, but it was in a separate event. And in that case, professionals was meant to include fencing masters. So people who were living from the sport, yes, but not from playing the sport.

indeed a very high proportion of European elite fencers
are sponsored to such an extent that they are "professional".

They are subsidized for their fencing expenses. However most of them still do have a job. Yes, on most Olympic years their desks stay empty all of the time, or it may be a part time job, but they are not getting paid for fencing, and fencing is not what puts their food on the table. Therefore they are not professionals. Sure it is easier for them to train and compete because they are getting that government money to pay for the expenses incurred while fencing, but most fencers, even the European ones, are still not professional fencers.

[Artisan]

Originally posted by R. Exnicios

I have a specialization in sports law and am a licensed sports lawyer.

I would advise people to be careful and well informed before jumping on board with the PFL and declaring themselves a "professional." Most of the goals could be achieved without a separate organization and the “professional” designation.
Cheers

I don't see where any "declarations" need be made, unless accepting the prize money becomes a de facto declaration.

I have no ncaa aspirations to risk (too old anyway)
nor any Olympic dreams (started too late)

But one thing does occur to me...suppose I enter and compete and am injured. Will my health insurance cover me if the injury is a result of a professional combat sport incident? I suspect not, but don't feel the need to go find the answer....

For the trip to summer nationals I bought trip insurance just in case I had to cancel for some reason, or my luggage got lost (especially my equipment case). In the fine print of the policy, it specifically excluded coverages for losses incurred due to injury while participating in any amateur sports event.

USFA at least does provide some coverages.

I'll watch this season. If it survives, and the kinks are worked out, I'd give it a go, of course with the permission of SWMBO.