Proffesional Fencing league... For Money!

[oiuyt]

I just wonder what Alan's opinion of someone claiming that the USA Star on his/her knickers constitutes 3 colors will be? :)

For that matter any club patch that has 2 non-white colors.

Just shows how stupid a rule like that is.....

-B :)

[mfp]

Originally posted by veeco

They are subsidized for their fencing expenses. However most of them still do have a job. Yes, on most Olympic years their desks stay empty all of the time, or it may be a part time job, but they are not getting paid for fencing, and fencing is not what puts their food on the table. Therefore they are not professionals.

In some countries their "job" is basically being a fencer in the army or some other service. To say they aren't being paid for fencing and that fencing isn't what puts food on their table fails the laugh test.

[a517dogg]

Tarantino of Italy is a "police officer" in Rome. i suspect he doesn't walk a beat.

[rukovsoft]

dear MFP,

you really think that so called professional fencers make a lot of money...maybe in the US but not in europe.
in france, they receive money when they belong to the national team or to the "pole france..." it puts food in theuir plate, allow them to pay the rent...but that s all
they have little time to make money, most of the time if they re coaching they don t make a smuch money as in the US...much less.
IE: i cannot remember the hourly wage of a high level coach in france, but i m sure it s around 50$...but 60% goes to the government (charges) for insurance, retirement...blabla

so a fencing coahc, has to coach 5 days a week in several clubs or be sport teacher in high school to make a descent living !!!

the professionla fencer that makes money out of fencing is an utopy...

even Laura Flessel who is sueing the french fencing federation admited she doesn t make that much money with adidas as her sponsor.

[mfp]

Originally posted by rukovsoft
dear MFP,

you really think that so called professional fencers make a lot of money...maybe in the US but not in europe.

dear rukovsoft,

I never commented on how much money such fencers made, let alone claimed that they make "a lot of money". My point was that in some countries fencers have sham jobs where they are supposedly in the army or somesuch but in reality their job is to fence and further develop their fencing talent.

Their governments claiming they aren't employing fencers but rather soldiers may convince the IOC or whoever but it doesn't make it any less laughable. Such fencers are in essence being paid to fence and are therefore professionals.

[veeco]

Originally posted by mfp
My point was that in some countries fencers have sham jobs where they are supposedly in the army or somesuch but in reality their job is to fence and further develop their fencing talent.

They are in the army, and they are being paid by the army as soldiers. They salary check doesn't say "fencer" on it, therefore they are not professional fencers. That's the definition of a professional sports athlete. Having another job, even though it may not be more than a part time job, they are not professionals.

I suspect these people do spend a lot of time fencing, but to be in accordance with the law it is necessary for them to perform at least some function related to their job title, for a certain amount of time. i.e. if they are soldiers they will participate in some training exercises from time to time, if they are policeman, they will either coordinate traffic or push some paper behind a desk a couple of days a week.

They will be professional when they explicitely receive money for fencing.

[picojeff]

Originally posted by veeco
They will be professional when they explicitely receive money for fencing.

Isn't that splitting the hair rather fine? How many days of "work" as an army grunt must someone do to validate their part time job in the army? I know one former chinese olympian who was given a uniform one day a year to stand in review with her division, but every other day of the year trained as a fencer. She didn't even get to keep the uniform in her closet! All of her housing and food and expenses were paid for, because she was a top fencer. Was she a professional?

If she never did any work for the army, but her paycheck was still written to Lieutenant so-and-so, would she remain a non-professional?

[oiuyt]

It's not like amateur status is required to be in the Olympics. That rule was removed in time for the Barcelona games (1992). The FIE itself awards prize money.

If elite ethlete programs through the military or police is how some other countries choose to fund the training of their athletes, good for them. Doesn't require hair splitting, it's merely another way of getting such funding through their legislative bodies. The US does this too with the Air Force and Army "World Class Athlete Program". 2-3 years of full-time training leading up to an Olympic Games. This is exactly the type of thing that you all are citing for the European athletes.

Quote from Chad Senior given on the Army WCAP page:

Senior realizes all too well where his bread is buttered.

“I train hard. That’s my job: to work hard and run hard,” he said. “But no one is shooting at me. I’m not leaving my wife. So, yeah, I have a sense of guilt like: ‘Hey, these guys are going and maybe I should be going with them.’ Guys who you went to school with and spent six months in the woods with at Fort Benning [Ga.] are all going to war. And if the call comes, I’m going.”

-B :)

[picojeff]

I know it makes no difference whether an athlete is amateur or professional. I thought we were arguing semantics!

WCAP is a great program. One member of our national men's epee team is taking advantage of it, and there are more in line for the future. I would consider going in for it myself, if I weren't so old and broken down even the Army won't accept me!

[mfp]

Originally posted by veeco
They are in the army, and they are being paid by the army as soldiers. They salary check doesn't say "fencer" on it, therefore they are not professional fencers. That's the definition of a professional sports athlete. Having another job, even though it may not be more than a part time job, they are not professionals.

The strict definition of a professional athlete is one who receives any kind of payment, directly or indirectly, for athletics participation. The case that the athlete doesn't make enough to live on from their athletics participation or has another job doesn't mean they aren't a professional.

And the reason some have a job as a policeman or soldier isn't because they're providing police or soldier services -- they're providing fencing and being paid for their fencing abilities (or to develop them). Since they are receiving payments of various kinds for their participation in fencing, they are professional fencers. It really doesn't matter if the compensation is indirect and they're given some other title -- they're still professionals.

It's just a government sponsored form of something like a university booster who gives a star basketball player a sham summer "job" where the player rarely (if ever) has to make an appearance or do the "job" and instead spends the summer practicing his shots. In both cases the athletes involved are really being paid for their participation in athletics, not their soldiering or internship.

I think it's great that in some countries fencers can get paid to fence and maybe not even have to worry about actually performing another job. Their real job is to fence and they're compensated for it. However it's just silly when people claim that because these fencers are called soldiers, or have to put on a police uniform a couple of times a year, that somehow means they aren't being paid for their fencing. They are, they're professional fencers and that's OK.

[R. Exnicios]

There are several points to consider as far as being a "professional" competitor.

Insurance, taxes, liability (both civil and potentially criminal) and as everyone has mentioned eligibility in High school and NCAA programs.

Insurance: Tell your life insurance agent that you are a fencer and depending on your policy and agent you may get to watch your rates increase. The same will go for health insurance.

Taxes: This is much more complicated and I do not claim to know much about taxes other than I pay too much. But there is a difference between being paid to teach, paid to compete and competing for prize money. (i.e. a prizefighter vs. a baseball player)

Liability. Civilly you will be held to a higher standard of care because you are a "professional” This distinction is one of semantics but if you hold yourself out as a professional the courts will hold you to that standard. This is not a problem until some fool wants to sue you for an injury or some other nonsense. Once money is on the line people tend to get ugly and hire lawyers

Criminally is a long shot but there is a difference in the standard of care and reasonableness. This would only come up if you hurt someone. Again money is on the line people get nasty. There have been football players that were held liable for hitting late and a there have been cases in which football, soccer or hockey players have been charged with battery and such.

High school and NCAA eligibility has been discussed already and it varies from State to State for high school.

Now all this being said. You could still compete in a PLF event and just never hold yourself out as a professional. Maybe even Blake could set up an "amateur" entry procedure.

Good luck with the colored uniforms.

[CvilleFencer]

I hate to spoil the fun, as there have been some really interesting things that have come up on this thread like who is and is not a pro, but ummm, well, nobody is saying they are pro fencers if the compete in the Swordmaster series. It is another local string of tourneys. It is no more or less big a deal than the Duel in the Desert in Las Vegas.

The Duel in the Desert has prize money, people make video tapes, and it is one of the biggest tourneys on that side of the Mississippi as I understand it.

No one gets sued, or maimed. Fencer bob does not take a chainsaw to Judge Tom just because he got put out of the tourney. Fencers do not riot and start fistfights in the pools. It is just another tourney, and I see no reason to think that this one, if it gets off the ground would be any different. The Duel in the Desert is a USFA event for Christ sakes! You can get a $1000 bones and an A!

I think everyone needs to remember that the PFL was a separate group than the current topic of discussion. I can see how it could be hard to separate them since it would appear some of the key people are the same, but fencing is a small world.

I think that it is a little early to bemoan the Swordmaster series as the harbinger of lawsuits, crushed college dreams of young fencers, and a WWF style transformation of fencing just because it has a little bit of scratch as a prize instead of the same medals over and over and over...

[veeco]

Originally posted by picojeff
Isn't that splitting the hair rather fine? How many days of "work" as an army grunt must someone do to validate their part time job in the army? I know one former chinese olympian who was given a uniform one day a year to stand in review with her division, but every other day of the year trained as a fencer. She didn't even get to keep the uniform in her closet! All of her housing and food and expenses were paid for, because she was a top fencer. Was she a professional?

It may be splitting the hairs rather fine, however, it does have an important effect IMO. I think that once there can be professional fencers (with professional having the meaning I put forth) it may be that fencing will enjoy a surge in interest from the general population. People will be like "Wow, you can get money for this thing?". Kids will start to train harded and be more motivated because they want to be a professional. Having people having sham jobs is different because in effect they will be considered amateurs by the population, even though for some of you it doesn't seem the case, I think that the majority of the population will follow my line of thought.

Finally, I actually remember seeing a list of the fencers who qualified for the Olympics along with their job. Some countries did qualify a lot of policemen and army men, but in general most of the people who qualified had regular jobs or were students. I'll try and find it to post a link.

[picojeff]

Point taken. To be a professional in the eyes of the public, your income must come explicitly from fencing. The lawyers might have a different standard, the NCAA yet another. But in order to boost popularity we need someone who's doing well financially by winning prize money and getting big sponsors.

[MikeHarm]

I dunno, it still sounds a little like those 'no show' jobs they kept talking about in the Sopranos series to me. I guess Veeco is the expert on it though.

[nahouw]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer

I think everyone needs to remember that the PFL was a separate group than the current topic of discussion. I can see how it could be hard to separate them since it would appear some of the key people are the same, but fencing is a small world.

I think that we have a lawyer in this thread that can help clear this up. Correct me if I am wrong, but under bankcruptcy law, there are different chapters -- one in which the original parties cannot be involved with the reorganization and another which doesn't have this prohibition -- is it Chapter 7 and 11 or Chapter 11 and 13?? Since Alan is involved in BOTH incarnations, and is quite the leading and driving force, this is a fundamental question that needs to be answered before you can just say that the PFL was a separate group -- did Alan actually file for bankruptcy under either of these chapters -- and hence, creditors would be protected and retributed in a judgement order, or did he just disappear for a while and now has come into light again? And, legally speaking, if all of the PFL creditors weren't retributed after the first incarnation, what is their available redress of their situation, considering liens against this incarnation and statute of limitations?

Yes, I agree that fencing is a very, very small world -- people create their own reputation, and it is your exhibition of your character that people will remember you for.

[wflaschka]

I've followed this thread with interest. Now that we've descended into lawyers, bankruptcy, and hair-splitting over the term "pro", let me just say: The proof will be in the pudding.

Alan can deal with his own creditors, sell his own videos, fund his own project, manage his own goals, &etc. The real question for any fencer is: In September will there be a tournament that costs $25 to fence in? Unless that fencer really, really cares about the PFL's struggle, or Alan's personal challenges, there's really nothing more to worry about (well... plus the decorated uniform thing).

Prize money or not, sponsors or not, TV coverage or not... it's still a tournament. I've paid more to fence fewer people. If I fenced Epee, I'd be in at $25 just for the novelty. $25 is a fair risk, in exchange for a tournament, and a chance to help a semi-pro fencing culture form.

A good friend urged me to be cautious about the PFL. Fer sure... caveat emptor, as always, for sponsors and vendors. But for competitors, this really seems like a no-brainer. If there's a tournament, then yay.