To USFA: How to improve Summer Nationals

[edew]

The top 100 fencers don't necessarily want to direct. And there's no obvious correlation between good fencers and good referees. Some good fencers can't referee an epee bout let alone right of way weapons. And they don't put in the care or concern as a referee would. They might not care about the one foot off the side of the strip or the incidental corps-a-corps.

The issue of pay has been addressed at the BoD meeting with positive results for the referees.

We still need more referees, and they will be made available.

I don't know how to enforce the number of referees per division rule. I guess the number of fencers qualified from a division is set proportional to the number of referees sent to the tournament. That would be one way to encourage divisions to send referees.

[rukovsoft]

in france for every 5 fencers you bring you have to bring a referee at some events.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Is the bottleneck lack of referees or lack of strips?

Early on, I kept hearing bout committee complaints that they had wanted more strips installed, but the venue layout didn't allow for all the strips that had been shipped.

Perhaps we could have an incremental increase in the registration fees for the Nats, if it allowed for rental of larger facilities with enough room for a sufficiency of strips.

A 5.5 hour delay in starting an event is unacceptable, whatever the reasons.

[rukovsoft]

oh i forgot to mention...when we had 500 fencers fencing a livry gargan in france for the nac, only men epee senior was taking place. other events take place at different time and different moments.
maybe, as it has been suggested before they could be widespread .
on the other hand that would imply addtional costs if fencers want to fence several events...

[Inquartata]

Bah, epee directors are easy to find! Throw a stick and you'll hit three or four. If all else fails, get a few homeless guys off the street or prop a couple of coma patients up beside the strips...

But seriously, while I agree with Eric that it's imperative to have good and nonfencing referees at major competitions, and that paying the officials better is a good thing, I am still dubious that more money is going to translate into better referees. More of them sure, but money is an incentive to bad officials to come out as well as to good. Someone is still going to have to separate one from the other, and if history is any indication that's going to be a difficult chore...

[hello?]

PERHAPS, if you have more referees you can be pickier. So whoever is in charge can pick and choose the best, instead of having to take whoever shows up simply because you can't afford to turn any away.

[Dragonfly]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Bah, epee directors are easy to find! Throw a stick and you'll hit three or four. If all else fails, get a few homeless guys off the street or prop a couple of coma patients up beside the strips...

But seriously, while I agree with Eric that it's imperative to have good and nonfencing referees at major competitions, and that paying the officials better is a good thing, I am still dubious that more money is going to translate into better referees. More of them sure, but money is an incentive to bad officials to come out as well as to good. Someone is still going to have to separate one from the other, and if history is any indication that's going to be a difficult chore...

A good director is hard to find [to paraphrase], but Inquartata, if the directors are schooled properly and take a test, they will be good. It is still a little better than pulling a tired fencer from another strip who should be getting ready for their direct elimination bouts by resting. Having two separate responsibilites is good. The small amounts of money, or reimbursements actually for referees is not significant enough to cause an outburst.

[michel]

Originally posted by rukovsoft
moreover,
another solution, if you don t want to fence lame people, just give a 2 round-by to the first 32 and a one round one to the top 64. that s how we do in france. not quite fair, but reduces the problem.

In France for senior national, there are 3 formats :
1/ only in ME, it occurs in 2 days.
Fencers who belongs to the first 48 of French rankings, or the first 64 of FIE rankings, have a bye for the first day.
All the other ones fence in a pool round, and the best ones the this round are directly promoted to the second day. The number of promoted is determined before the beginning of the pools so that the sum of those who are byed for the 1st day and those who are directly promoted after the pool round is 64.
All those who fenced the pool round and are not directly promoted after the pool round fence a DE up to 32 qualifiers for the second day.
So during the second day, there is a pool round of 96, 78 promoted, a second pool round of 78, 64 promoted, and a DE of 64 without repechages.

For the others weapons, two possibilities :
2.1/ if there are more than 120 fencers, it is a 2-days format.
As was saying Ruk, in the first day, there is a first pool round, top 64 of French ranking byed, a second pool round with promoted from the 1st round (70 to 80%) and 33 to 64 of French ranking (top 32 still byed).
During the second day, promoted from the 2nd round (70 to 80%) and top 32 fence two pool rounds with 70 to 80% promoted to each next round and then a DE without repechages.

2.2/ in ther are less than 120 fencers, it is a 1-day format. Two pools rounds with 70 to 80% promoted to each next round and then a DE without repechages.

in france, we only have div 1 (top 32) and div 2(next 100 if i remember, somebody (veeco?) correct me if i m wrong)

For Senior National Championship, we have div 2 with top 21 to 40 of French rankings before div 2 directly qualified, plus others qualified by division, so that makes about 100 who fence div 2 in June.
Best 20 of div 2 and Top 20 of French rankings before div 2 fence div 1 in December, and this is only a DE without repechages.

In Spain, they have div 1 and 2 for National Championship, and even div 3 for ME and WE, and these divs are fenced 2 or 3 consecutive weeks.
When there is a div 3, every fencer ranked in national ranking of this weapon from 65 to the end can compete, and the best 16 of div 3 can compete in div 2. So in div 2, top 17 to 64 for national rankings, and the best 16 of div 3 can compete, and best 8 of div 2 can compete in div 1. In div 1, these best 8 of div 2 and top 16 of the ranking can fence.
When there is only a div 2 and a div 1, every fencer ranked in national ranking of this weapon from 17 to the end can compete in div 2, and the Top 16 of ranking and best 8 of div 2 can compete in div 1.

[JEC]

I am bringing this thread back to life because a group of us is working on a proposal to USFA. What other ideas that have not been posted are being suggested to improve the NACs, JO's, and summer nationals.

One example,

Oiuyt posted the following link regarding the BoD meeting
http://www.umass.edu/rso/fencing/BoDAgenda102503.doc

In page 17, the following statement was made:
"During NAC A in Overland Park we will be piloting the use of a projection system to “post” pools and strips."

If it was implemented, how did it work? If it wasn't, how well do you think it would work?

[Rolls]

It was my understanding that they had planned to do this in Austin last summer. They didn't. I think because they either didn't have a projector or something was wrong with it.

Personally, I think it is a great idea. Easy, affordable, and you won't have a bunch of sweaty fencers crowded around spreading germs (just kidding about the germs part).

To be honest, I think it's something that should be done at ALL tournaments even small local events. Projectors aren't that hard to come by. Just about every school, church, and other large organization has one. It shouldn't be a big deal for whoever is hosting the tournament to borrow one. Even if it's the old fashion kind that you use transparencies with. Yuo can pick up the transparency paper at any office supply store.

Rolls.

[Rolls]

Here's an overhead projector for $130. That might be too much for a club, but at the divisional level, it's not unreasonable.

http://www.officedepot.com/ddSKU.do?level=SK&id=409991

Rolls.

[oiuyt]

It was not done in Kansas. The fact that it was mentioned in the agenda was the first I'd heard that the USFA was going to try this. A couple of the larger local competitions in this area (New England Collegiate Championships, Pomme de Terre, others?) have used projection displays in the past year with great success.

Incidently, I would NOT assume that the USFA was looking at using an overhead projector like those found in a typical classroom, but rather an LCD projector attached to a computer. For any decent lumens rating this is NOT a cheap piece of hardware. Given that the venues are (presumably) well lit to start with, the projection task is non-trivial.

-B :)

[Rolls]

Granted the ideal situation would be to use a high-end, high-lumens LCD projector. If it were done at a national tournament, this would have to be the case. I was merely stating an affordable alternative for small local tournaments.

Also, while ideal viewing conditions would be in the dark, I could hardly see how projecting with a cheap overhead projector on a blank wall even with the lights on could be any worse than posting an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper.

I still think a projector would be an easy and viable option for the local tournament.

Rolls.

[Inquartata]

This was suggested at the Veteran's Committee meeting at...was it Orlando or Austin? Anyway, the gentleman who sugessted it had an excellent reason for doing so: vision problems which made it hard for him to make out the typical tiny print on posted pool sheets, crowds around said postings notwithstanding...

[nahouw]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
Is the bottleneck lack of referees or lack of strips?

I would say that it is a combination of both -- and at any given point in time, it is one or the other. Or rather, better said, the bottlneck is the person controlling Summer Nationals that is not able to respond and adjust to the needs of keeping the competition running smoothly.

We had parents in our division that attended Summer Nationals for the first time, and they approached our division officers to find out why there was a problem. We have a very large division, and we are able to co-ordinate our strip space and referees -- I think that in National competitions, there isn't somebody cognizant in logistics and scheulding running these events, so this is what happens -- you have to be acutely aware of your resources, and it is a constant balancing act to keep things moving along.

In our division, we are aware of the time required for pools, DEs and schedule accordingly. We are also well aware of our referee's capabilities amongst multiple weapons, and also schedule time for them to have lucnh. We also know that we will have new fencers, and have problems during initial seeding -- all this goes into how we determine our start times.

[nahouw]

Originally posted by JEC
In page 17, the following statement was made:
"During NAC A in Overland Park we will be piloting the use of a projection system to “post” pools and strips."

If it was implemented, how did it work? If it wasn't, how well do you think it would work?

Umm, this has been implemented in all NCAA regional and NCAA finals competitions that I have watched in the last several years..... If the NCAA can implement this with regularity, how come the USFA has problems in doing so??

[JEC]

Since you seem to be an expert, tell us why it hasn't been implemented? What other suggestions can you provide constructively to improve NAC's, JO's, Summer Nationals?