Strength

[vaxevan]

I am the ultimate epitomy of fencing newbie. I've been reading up on the basic terms and stuff, and had a small question. From what I've read, it seems like you would'nt need to be insanely strong to do fencing well, but do you fencers do any sort of weight training? Thanks.

[Dalton]

If I were your trainer, I would tell you to forget about weights. There are plenty of other, more efficient ways to build up strenght and power for fencing.

Footwork, footwork, footwork.

[rory]

Fencing is *not* about strength.
Technique, distance, timing and good footwork are what you need.

Weight training can help to keep your body in balance, as fencing tends to build musculature asymetrically, and light weights/high reps will help your speed and stamina.

Certainly at beginner level, you should be working on your timing, distance, hand technique and footwork. Improving these things will give you far more immediate (and long term) results and improvement.

If you're desperate to do some related weights though, stick with core strength exercises: crunches and lower back exercises, that kind of thing.

[achilleus]

Yes, we lift weights. A proper weight training program can help develop strength, speed, power, explosion, and endurance. All those, used properly, are helpful when fencing, and necessary when competing at the higher levels. This year, Paul Soter, the US national coach in ME, has had a USOC trainer at several camps. The trainer who has worked with Soren Thompson for over a year, has a weight training program that he developed specifically for fencers to improve their performance on strip.

[retardedspleen]

Originally posted by Dalton
If I were your trainer, I would tell you to forget about weights. There are plenty of other, more efficient ways to build up strenght and power for fencing.

Footwork, footwork, footwork.

Dalton, and Rory;

Im sorry but your not entirly correct. no biggie though, cause your (as you said) not a trainer.


Yes infact wieght lifting is good, just keep in mind we're not worken to be Mr.Universe here. we're looken to be In shape, good shape. not about strength? ehhh....Strength does infact help, a lot. Although speed helps more. luckily weight lifting can do both of these as Achilleus explained (you used the few examples i was gunna use )

lets say we take a 22 year old average male, never done any weight lifting in his life, give him a weapon teach him the basics and put him in a tournament, that has him working for 6 hours (not very long if you think about it) i'll tell ya right now hes gunna have a MUCH easier time lasting through all that if he has taken the steps to achieve a good weight training program. USFA had an Artical about weight lifting programs involving medicine balls. It would have been very informative for me, had i not already been doing all of what the said for a year already (and beleave you me, it helps like crazy!!!)

Footwork and basic fencing is mostly one sided, and dosnt so much promote muscle growth, but tones the exsisting muscle. weight lifting promotes muslce growth, and weight training when done correctly, ALSO tones the muscle. there is no con here. none. nothing but plus's!

I would start weight training! its great. not to mention if you enjoy that type of stuff normaly, you'll enjoy it even more. cause you put those muscle into semi practical use, you give them reason with fencing.

I hope i got your muscle up top worken to figure out wich one of the 4 of our 2 opions are correct *whispers "its mine and achilleus's" whispers*


Chris Triplett

[achilleus]

Also, keep in mind that strength, while definitely not the most important aspect of fencing, is still necessary.

Think about it. You come face to face with your complete twin. Same build, speed, thought process, skill level, etc. The exact same except in one category, she/he is stronger. Who do you think has the advantage?

[Mar98]

which exercises do you recommend for strength training? someone mentioned an article on that topic .. is it available online?

another question to the pros: how can i effectively train speed?

thx,
/me

[pammie003]

I used to get sore back muscles until I started training my off side with weights. Now, I'm much more balanced and things feel much better. Same goes for my left arm (I'm a righty).

At the beginning levels, it may be tempting to react to a strong beat with a strong arm tactice, but remember that finesse is more important. That said, when I fence the men on my team, they have me beat hands down when it comes to arm strength, and I have to find ways of avoiding their beat attacks. In a strength 'competition' with them, I'd be defeated every time. If I let them beat my blade, my arm is to far out of the way to recover and parry! It's tempting to fall back on strength, but I'm really working on avoiding it.

[pammie003]

Sorry, forgot to mention this. One weight exercise I've come to love is squats with a weighted belt or vest, or with a barbell on my shoulders. Not too much weight, but just enough to make it challenging.

As for other exercises, I focus on doing more reps with lighter weights. The goal is not to bulk up, but to tone up and build endurance.

[picojeff]

The thing you want most is power in your legs. Strong arms won't help you nearly as much, and if you overtrain on the weights it can slow you down.

I agree that squats are an essential part of a weight training for fencing. (Anyone who has seen me do a squat knows I need a lot of work in that area myself!) There are a hundred different ways to strengthen your legs, and switching around now and then is better than sticking to one routine all the time. A decent trainer can help you find new things to do to keep building the essential muscle groups. And, trying something new you read online without knowing how it's properly done can lead to injury. (e.g., me trying to do a squat.) So I think a trainer is mandatory when you're talking about strength training, or I should say power training.

After legs, work on your core, especially balanced muscle development in the back. Nobody wants a crooked spine!

[Craig]

If you want to be really good, you need to be strong. Do that with a combination of weight training and other sports.

Don't take it from me, take it from an Olympian:

From a bio on Keeth Smart:
"It's all about how strong your legs are. That's what they noticed about me right away. They thought I had strong legs from playing basketball and football. They thought I'd be a good fencer."

Also, in NCAA fencing programs, there is a good amount of weight training done to keep you in shape and help develop your muscles.

Some coaches feel that if you weight train, you will tighten up your muscles and won't be able to perform blade actions as well as if you only practiced blade work. This is similar to the argument against weight training for sports like basketball and baseball several years ago. As long as you are doing a proper weight program (which includes stretching during and after your lifting times), then it will augment your game.

Cheers,
Craig

[picojeff]

Both Paul Soter and Zach Weatherford (the USOC strength and conditioning coach) pooh-pooh stretching. In their estimation, it's the type of strength training you do that limits your speed. The wrong kind of lifting makes you bulky and slow. The right kind doesn't. Zach has a lot of drills, like ladder drills, to increase speed in conjunction with increasing power. I wish I knew more on this subject, but as I understand it the program is still in development so we should all learn more over the next year or so as Zach works with more fencers.

I know that if I don't stretch I have problems, so I believe in it. But I don't believe it is what keeps me fast, just what keeps me limber and free of certain kinds of pain.

[neevel]

An additional, and very important (especially as you become a "not-getting-any-younger" adult) benefit of a proper strength training program is that it will reduce the likelihood of injuries, especially joint injuries. The better support your musculature can provide, the less stress is going to be placed on your joints.

The canard about any form of strength training causing you to become inflexible and muscle-bound really doesn't hold up-- even for training programs that are intended to build up lots of power instead of toning and conditioning. Olympic weightlifters, for example, have execellent flexibility.

-Dave

[Wizardly]

You wont regret being strong while you're fencing. Obviously, muscle is mass and stuff you have to shove around with your legs during a bout, but you're never going to become Mr. Universe by fencing. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say unless you're spending 3 hours a day in the gym pumping iron, you're fairly safe (and if you are, when do you have time to fence???) You wont notice the times where it's the end of the day and you've fenced for 6 hours and it's the last bout and your legs DON'T shake and you AREN'T too tired to do footwork correctly or even come on guard correctly, and your wrists AREN'T jello and your disengages are NOT slow. If you're weak, you better have a HUGE force of will to keep going, because you will notice this every time it happens.

Can anybody post a link to the mentioned training programs or at least some theories about what kind of exercise is beneficial to fencing. For example, should endurence training reign supreme (many reps with low weight), or should we be going after those fast twitch muscles with heavy weights and few reps to supplement the endurance training received anyway in practice?

Personally, I'm scared to death of doing squats for fear of destroying my back, so I've supplemented this with lunges (not like fencing lunges: hold weights in your hand, step out, bend your front leg to 90 degrees, step back, switch legs). This mirrors almost perfectly the push off during recovery from a fencing lunge. I'm wondering if anyone can comment on the wisdom of using this exercise instead of a squat.

[WHEREISMYTOE]

Squats shouldn't hurt your back. . . Keep it completely straight, and just use your legs.
Lunges are not nearly as good as squats.

-N

[sparkie]

Hi all,

Every athlete in every sport can benefit from weight training, but weight training is really only one aspect of the complete athlete.

As mentioned previously, Zach W and Paul Soter don't like organized stretching programs. There are many others like myself, that do however and both camps have studies to support them, just like there are studies to support static vs. dynamic stretching.

Another aspect of an athlete is speed. You can be very strong, but if you can't perform the action quickly you will not be a consistent winner.

This leads me to my point, what everyone is really talking about is increasing POWER. Power is usually defined as strength + speed.

There is a very well known training program called Plyometrics that has been used for 20-30 years (more so now than earlier) that is specifically designed to increase power. There are several good books on it from Human Kinetics (http://www.humankinetics.com/)

It requires a base level of strength and flexibility and has been proven over and over again to be truly beneficial. It works on what is known as the stretch-shortening cycle of muscle contraction and is very well documented.

So, should fencers weight train? YES. Should they be flexible? YES, and how they get there is irrevelent. Should they be fast? YES, and there is specific speed training that can be done to become quicker.

Should they do plyometrics? YES as it takes the strength that comes from weight training and combines it with explosive speed in an organized and tested program which increases an athletes level of POWER.

[Peach]

I would caution that plyometrics are probably not a good idea for an older athlete, because of the stress they put on the joints. The advantage they can confer is not made up for by the potential for injury.

As an older athlete, I do lift weights, though--light weights, a full routine. My health club has good machines and good trainers.

[Chobes]

Anyone know where i can find a book or a source of information on how to properly build the correct muscles needed for fencing, how to make a personal program for myself?

i'm currently lifting weights regularly, doing sit ups / crunches etc and isometrics. i'm sure there is something more i can do, just not sure what. anyone know where i can find out what i can do to build the right muscles? and how to improve my speed?



~Chobes~

[Wizardly]

I was reading somewhere, "the best way to develop muscles for a particular spart is to practice that sport." I know, a real "well duh" factor, huh?

I assume the speed you're looking for is quick lunges/recovery...this would seem to imply strength IMHO.

I asked for a link for fencing-specific exercises, but that has yet to appear. As such, I can only really dispense advice and a couple of other links.

The division newsletter where I'm at recommended a full body workout 2-3 times a week during the off season, and during the regular season, perform the workout only once a week to maintain strength. If I were to pick a muscle group where power is most important to fencing, I'd go with the legs.

The article is at the end of the division newsletter here:
http://www.totheescrime.org/newsletter.htm

Two websites I get a lot of info from are
http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/
http://www.exrx.net/Exercise.html

The latter, if for nothing else, is good for demonstrating exercises you can perform on each muscle in various ways.

The recommendation I've been following is strength training using weights (8-12 reps/15-20 reps for legs and abdomen), and endurance training through practice during the season. (Endurance is apparently the least enduring effect of exercise, and strength is long lasting). Most of the literature I've read suggest the results of many sets diminishes sharply, and overtraining is a real detriment. You don't really need to obliterate your legs for a half hour to get results. A couple of exercises seems to give results just fine.

I'm also hoping someone on here can either affirm or refute the logic of exercising like this for fencing. If nothing else, at least I'm looking better.

I've read conflicting information on whether or not one should perform 1 or 2 sets of each exercise. 2 sets seems to favor endurance since you aren't working you muscles to failure on each set. I'm wondering if anybody has an expertise to recommend between the two options. I'm inclined to favor 1 set simply because it takes less time unless you're circuit training.

[Windsor]

Anyone have a link to the USFA article on weight training? I haven't done any sort of weight room stuff for an extended period of a time and I've only given it a little bit of thought. I don't feel like paying for a trainer, but if there's some general guidelines about what fencers should do, it'd be greatly appreciated!