Designs on Masks

[Marcos]

What is the rule regarding the designs you can have on masks and equipment?

At a recent competition ,5 Nations, a sabreur from Scotland looked like something out of Braveheart, a blue and white St Andrews cross on his lame and mask.

A sabreaur from Wales had red dragons all over his lame.

You can now buy masks with national colours on the mesh

is there an FIE rule?

(in fairness, the fencers mentioned were able to carry it off as they are pretty awesome - if i tried it I think I'd look daft)


PS 5 Nations is where England, Ireland, N.Ire, Wales and Scotland compete in all 6 weapons

[Mergs]

Hadn't heard that designs on lame`s were legal (here in the US), but designs on masks are legal. Goofy, IMHO, but legal. As for the national colors on masks, haven't seen anyone offering them, but who knows, vendors do lurk on this board. They may take the hint!

[NJP3]

I think that you can where the painted masks, but your opponent can ask for you to take it off, and if so you are required to have a regular one.

[Cyranox11]

As far as I understand, designs must be submitted to the FIE for approval. If they give the ok, then you are good to go otherwise you cant use the mask at an international event.
Locally I guess it varies from country to country and region to region...
These rules were brought about by Milanoli's demonic clown at the Nimes WC.

[R. Exnicios]

Originally posted by Cyranox11
As far as I understand, designs must be submitted to the FIE for approval. .....

I remember reading an FIE release about this as well as something in the rules. I think the rules that apply are actually in the publicity section as well as the general rules.

Having fenced a few people wih the faces painted on the masks I think it looks foolish but it didi give me a better target to aim for (in epee of course).

You know. They have that Lame' life saver thread. Maybe we can have things stiched on the lamee.

"flick this!" or maybe arrows pointing to our strongest perry locations.

Just a thought. Now its gone

Cheers

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

I do know that it's legal to spray paint the mesh on your mask a solid color, as i saw someone wearing a yellow mask, and i myself have a navy blue one...I'm not sure about the rule, if your opponent tells you to take it off you have to, and now i'm a bit scared lol...again, not sure about designs, but atleast in the states solid colours are fine.

~JAySE Spencer

[DHCJr]

The rules on putting a design on your mask are very vague and subject to interpretation. The publicity rules as stated earlier are the ones to come into play. What they talk about is a ‘Mark’, which is defined as an advertisement.

For example, certain socks were banned because they had three slashes, which even though it did not have the name, that was considered as advertisement. If you put a skull and crossbones on the mask, which is a logo for a certain brand of cigarette, that would be illegal for two reasons, the above and being a tobacco product, which is specifically banned along with alcohol.

So, if whatever is painted on can be in anyway tied in with a company, product or something else, it could be termed illegal.

If you want to read it yourself, check the Fencers’ Publicity Code in the Appendix of the rulebook.

[Inquartata]

Another reason to be grateful for being a sabre fencer---the mask mesh must be conductive, so we won't see any of this nonsense for awhile. Until those transparent masks become mandatory, at least.

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

well, barns used to be painted with paint that had metal chips in them...so maybe they'll create a paint that conducts electricity? you never know.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by Mergs
but designs on masks are legal. Goofy, IMHO, but legal.

I would like to say you will pay for that. But we never wind up fencing, even in pools. I would also like to think of a witty rejoiner, but it is really late. How about "well, some people have those silly VAF and Army patches on their jackets. How tacky is that?" but it does not have the right zing to it, and making fun of military patches on jackets might get Mr. Arthur mad at me.

IOU one witty comment for your lack of respect for the all-powerful demon mask. Just don't be surprised when it comes!

[oiuyt]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Another reason to be grateful for being a sabre fencer---the mask mesh must be conductive, so we won't see any of this nonsense for awhile. Until those transparent masks become mandatory, at least.

Over on fencingforum one of the LP people mentioned doing up a sabre mask for someone to look like Mel Gibson's Braveheart facial paint.... keeping the mask conductive at the same time. Was rather proud of it. So it can be done.

-B :)

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by Cyranox11
As far as I understand, designs must be submitted to the FIE for approval. If they give the ok, then you are good to go otherwise you cant use the mask at an international event.
Locally I guess it varies from country to country and region to region...
These rules were brought about by Milanoli's demonic clown at the Nimes WC.

I thought that the submittal rules only applied to country colors on Uniforms. I had not heard anything about it appling to other gear.

If an item is FIE and comes colored or patterned, then one assumes that it has been approved yes? Colored blades, masks, and Lames are sold by LP, All-star, Uhlmann, etc. I hope that some knucklehead cannot make a fuss about any off that gear!

[R. Exnicios]

Originally posted by DHCJr
The rules on putting a design on your mask are very vague and subject to interpretation. The publicity rules as stated earlier are the ones to come into play. What they talk about is a ‘Mark’, which is defined as an advertisement.

So, if whatever is painted on can be in anyway tied in with a company, product or something else, it could be termed illegal.

If you want to read it yourself, check the Fencers’ Publicity Code in the Appendix of the rulebook.

The vagueness is the real problem. If some tournament official decides that they do not like it then they can use the publicity code to prevent you from using it.

At the Olympics in Atlanta we would have to measure all logos, designs and such and if it was too big or in the wrong location the item was confiscated. Anyone want to see the Nike towels I got from Carl Lewis?

Now the real confusion will be how the FIE enforces it. I've seen many European fencers who have sponsors with the sponsor's logo on the side of their masks and the FIE allows them to compete with the mask.


If it were me with the painted mask I would always have a spare masked check on hand just in case.

Cheers

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by NJP3
I think that you can where the painted masks, but your opponent can ask for you to take it off, and if so you are required to have a regular one.

No more so than if you have a colored blade, or off white socks. Some people will whine over anything I guess. I have heard rumors of some judges saying that certain designs are an attempt to intimidate the opponents and make a stink that way, but if it is just a solid color or combination of colors and not a face or phrase, I do not know what they could object to.

If anyone makes a stink about your mask I would insist that they use an all white body cord as it is part of the complete fencing kit and must be completely white! If they do not have an all white mask (including the bolts) I would object as well! The same thing for colored socks and shoes that are not all white.

You would think that some of the Grandpa fencers out there own stock in Clorox or something the way they whine! Painted masks are just expression! It is no different than the stupid colored school team socks and gloves, or wearing a club patch!

Fencing is an incredibly dynamic and exciting sport that is wrapped in plain white butchers paper, and the same people who whine about no one paying attention to us or our accomplishments are the same ones that object to anything that try’s to make the sport LOOK half as interesting and action oriented as it is!

We all stand around in white outfits with plain masks like storm troopers and we wonder why fencing is not good for viewing or fans! Sheesh!

Okay, rants over thanks for listening!

[Marcos]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Another reason to be grateful for being a sabre fencer---the mask mesh must be conductive, so we won't see any of this nonsense for awhile. Until those transparent masks become mandatory, at least.

it was Sabre that we were fencing, and the mask was conductive

Braveheart 5 - 1 Me

actually found it quite intimidating, and he was better than me anyway!!!

Anyway, I posted the same question on the UK site - the debate has followed similar lines

personally I don;t want fencing to become WWF wrestling, but I think the coloured masks are great for the sport

[Marcos]

The UK site, on which we've had the same thread, has a copy of the scottish kit

http://fencingforum.com/forum/showth...1071#post11071

you may need to scroll up a little

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by oiuyt
Over on fencingforum one of the LP people mentioned doing up a sabre mask for someone to look like Mel Gibson's Braveheart facial paint.... keeping the mask conductive at the same time. Was rather proud of it.

Sigh...

Well, I daresay that the fellow who does all those hideous paintings on black velvet is proud of HIS work, too...

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer
Some people will whine over anything I guess.

Yes. Some of them will even whine about other people expressing opinions which differ from their own...

Painted masks are just expression!

Yes. And in our "me above all" society, personal expression MUST of course be elevated above all other competing values...

Fencing is an incredibly dynamic and exciting sport that is wrapped in plain white butchers paper, and the same people who whine about no one paying attention to us or our accomplishments are the same ones that object to anything that try’s to make the sport LOOK half as interesting and action oriented as it is!

For my part I wouldn't particularly care if we and our sport remain in obscurity. I didn't take up fencing to be seen, or watched, or admired for my sartorial splendour. Did you?

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Yes. Some of them will even whine about other people expressing opinions which differ from their own...
Yes, and his screen name is Inquartata

Yes. And in our "me above all" society, personal expression MUST of course be elevated above all other competing values...
I think China is looking for fencers. Sounds like you might enjoy everyone dressing in Mao jackets and giving up your right to expression for the sake of outdated dogma. I really do not understand why you object so passionettly to the evolution of fencing.

And these witty comment you make, they are only funny when you do them to someone else! (Actually they are still funny, but I would not want to dissapoint and not whine about them!)

For my part I wouldn't particularly care if we and our sport remain in obscurity. I didn't take up fencing to be seen, or watched, or admired for my sartorial splendour. Did you?

No, but that is why I do competition!

The roar of the crowd, the pleas of mercy from my enemies, the feel as my blade slams into their flesh! That is a very fine thing, the dance of death and glory played out on the fencing strip.

It is almost obscene in its beauty, almost erotic in its passionate brutality. To fence a person is to learn them totally. Nothing can about their character can be hidden. It is the most personal of sports for you see your opponent’s soul in the way he deals with victory and defeat, and his personality in his style.

Why not share it? Do we as athletes, as warrior/scholars not deserve the allcolades and adoration of the masses? As keepers of the tradition of the blade, do we not have a compulsion to insure it lives on? As prophets of the great truths that are fencing do we not need to help others reach the same truths?

Sorry. I just had about a pound of jellybeans and a lot of amber poetry. Not the best combo this late at night...

[oiuyt]

Originally posted by Inquartata
For my part I wouldn't particularly care if we and our sport remain in obscurity. I didn't take up fencing to be seen, or watched, or admired for my sartorial splendour. Did you?

Obligatory Conan quote (or Genghis Khan paraphrase...) at this point:

"What is your purpose?"

"To crush my enemy, to see him driven before me, and to hear the lamentations of the women."

-B :)