italian grip

[Mar98]

hello,
this is my first post here, but i´m already reading the forum for some time. there were some discussions about advantages/disadvantages of french or pistol grip, but no one really covered the italian (and spanish) grips and its special characteristics.

i´m a foilist and i´m used to use pistol grips. but my coach told me, that fencing with an italian grip is more technical and sophisticated then fencing an ergonomic grip. can you agree? what do you think about and what experiences do you have with italian grips?

another question comes to my mind: what is the difference between a 'true' ricasso and a 'false' ricasso?

.. any comments towards spanish grips?

gree

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by Mar98
hello,
this is my first post here, but i´m already reading the forum for some time. there were some discussions about advantages/disadvantages of french or pistol grip, but no one really covered the italian (and spanish) grips and its special characteristics.

They are virtually unknown and unused hear in the states. I have never seen one used in competition, and I know several judges that swear they are illegal for USFA Comps, although I have never bothered to find out myself.

i´m a foilist and i´m used to use pistol grips. but my coach told me, that fencing with an italian grip is more technical and sophisticated then fencing an ergonomic grip. can you agree? what do you think about and what experiences do you have with italian grips?

I would tell your coach to evolve or die. In a nice way that is. The Italian grips seem popular with very traditional (which usually means they do not fence competition or have not done so in the past 20 years) fencers and instructors. If there were any benefit to using an Italian grip in foil, someone who is decent would be doing it. How often do you see a French grip in foil, much less an Italian?

It is more technically correct I suppose, and looks rather dashing, but you will have some very sore fingers if you ever come up against anyone with a very aggressive style and a strong arm I would think.

I have used them in epee on occasion, for recreation and SCA fencing, and I do not care for them. The hand position is such that you have power for a good slash, but you are short about and inch or more for thrusts because of your hand position. As we no longer slash with our epees (or especially foils), there is no need for the trade off.

Having said all of that, American Fencer Supply and Uhlmann in Germany have parts for them if you are so inclined. Experiment and have fun, but if your coach really thinks this is a great idea and you as a fencer have any desire to fence competitively (I am assuming that you do, even though you have not said so!) You might want to find a different coach to study with for more modern survival tactics such as flicks and their related defense.



another question comes to my mind: what is the difference between a 'true' ricasso and a 'false' ricasso?

I have never heard these phrases before... but now I am interested! The only thing that comes to mind are some of the Leon Paul epees with the removable blade base.



.. any comments towards spanish grips?

I think they are rather comfy to hold for a long time and combine some of the best of a French and Pistol grip. Having said that I find them very hard to flick with, and most judges I know will not let you use them.

I forget where, but there is some section in the (USFA) rules that basically says you can not combine the firm grip of a pistol and the pommeling/cupping ability of a French grip. The Spanish offset grips I have seen do this, and that is why the are cool. It is also why they can be considered illegal. I know a couple of fencers that used them until they had all of their weapons disqualified at a tourney.

If you decide to try it either one out let us know how it works for you! Good luck!

[R. Exnicios]

Originally posted by Mar98
what is the difference between a 'true' ricasso and a 'false' ricasso?

there have been several threads in the past on this topic. A true ricasso is a blade specifically designed for the Italian grip. The false ricasso is a piece of the grip that goes over a blade designed for a french grip between the bell and the finger ring.

The italian grip is an interesting grip but I really don't see it fitting into a modern game. The French grip can still be used at a division/section level. Fun stuff


Cheers

[JEC]

Originally posted by R. Exnicios
The italian grip is an interesting grip but I really don't see it fitting into a modern game. The French grip can still be used at a division/section level.

You're talking foil, but in epee, several WC events have been won in past couple of years with french grips.

[Mar98]

thanks.

@ CvilleFencer: my coach is not that an old relic .. we talked about that grip because one of our older female fencers uses one (and she is quite good with it and very stylish). his assumption was, that with rule changes in foil, especially with increased impact time, italian grips could be interesting again ..

so for me, i have a nice foil for tournaments (actually i attended just one). but for training of my bladework i would like to have such an italian foil with a stiff blade. hope, that prevents me from making the nonsense i normally do.

@ R. Exnicios: do you mean, a false ricasso is part of the grip? i thought, it would just be a normal blade used with italian grips. anyhow, how can i differentiate between a true ricasso and a normal blade? can i see the difference?

[jeff]

Mar98, welcome to the board!

I used to fence with Italian foil, as my college coach, Al Kwartler, was trained in that style and fenced internationally with it. There's a very, very small number of people that still fence with this grip, but, as stated by others, if it provided an advantage, lots of people would use it.

I pretty much found it to be like fencing with a pistol grip, but less comfortable. I used it for two years, unhappily, until Giorgio Santelli interceded with my coach (this is quite a while ago!) and I returned to pistol and French grips.

[R. Exnicios]

Originally posted by JEC
You're talking foil, but in epee, several WC events have been won in past couple of years with french grips.

Opps. yes I was talking foil. My brain always lapses to foil.

Many epee fencer do very well with a french grip.

Now that pistol grip saber....

[Foilboy]

CvilleFencer, Aldo Nadi, the greatest fencer perhaps ever, used and Italian grip. Of course, this was before pistol grips changed everything (not for good in my opinion.) I myself use a french grip with foil, which is my primary weapon (hence my name )

[R. Exnicios]

Originally posted by Foilboy
CvilleFencer, Aldo Nadi, the greatest fencer perhaps ever, used and Italian grip. Of course, this was before pistol grips changed everything (not for good in my opinion.) . . . .

More importantly it was before electric foil!

I too use a french grip for foil and I know that there are times that I would score one or two more touches with a pistol grip.

Cheers

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by Foilboy
CvilleFencer, Aldo Nadi, the greatest fencer perhaps ever, used and Italian grip. Of course, this was before pistol grips changed everything (not for good in my opinion.) I myself use a french grip with foil, which is my primary weapon (hence my name )

Now don't go dragging out long gone heroes from the closet! I was not trying to ruffle feathers for a change.

Nadi was a cool fencer from what I hear, but in my opinion Nadi at the top of his game would have gotten smeared buy Golubitski at the top of his. Look at clips of the two of them move (or at least of fencers of Nadi's era. I do not know of any of him personally) and compare it! Nadi is pretty to look at, but Golubitski would hit him a couple of times before Nadi finished one of those pretty (and huge) parries with his spiffy Italian sword.

The fact of the matter is that Nadi and fencers of his era would probably get creamed by a lot of us modern fencers as those guys of legend and lore never had to move faster that the judge could clearly see. With the advent of modern fencing, modern training, and electronic scoring modern fencers have to be much faster, parry smaller, repost quicker and all of that. IMHO of course. Of course Nadi would probably think we were jumping around flailing wildly and making a mockery of his sport.

But that was never the point. My point was not even that French grip has no place in modern foil. My point was that, in general, Italian grips have no real place in modern foil. People who think Italian grips are the way to go are usually very old, classically trained, trained by someone who is the former, or no real threat on the competitive circuit. They do look good though!

As to French grips I have only ever fought two people who use them in competition. One of them beats me as often as not. He has been fencing a bit longer than me, is a lefty, and just an all around swell swordsman and martial artist. The other guy, I do not remember his name, only that I crushed him and he spent most of his time picking his sword up off the ground!

More power to those who take the stylistic and classical high road. I am happy down here in the muck with my spiffy painted mask, colored blades, and flick friendly pistol grips. I was not trying to say that French grips are evil, or tread on any late great heroes. Really!

[R. Exnicios]

Not to keep a dying thread alive but...

I think most of use would get destroyed if we had to fence dry and be judged by the "classic" style rules!

See everyone at Nationals

[CvilleFencer]

I fenced at a dry tourney this season. I hated it and did horrible. Your point is well taken!

[Foilboy]

I agree Cville, the era of the Italian grip is quite dead. A new, more easy to handle animal has come to replace it, the pistol grip. After all, both grips promote a more agressive, strong fighting style, and both give the fingers something more to grip, so basically, the italian grip has evolved into the pistol. (I know that the pistol was not created for that purpose, but still, work with me here ) I use the french grip, basically because I like structure. The french grip gives me a more precise, and structured game. It brings balance, and order. Of course this could just be me!

[Toecutter]

I've tried the Italian grip with a rapier, and found it to be a little heavy-handed and uncomfortable. Made me feel ham-fisted.

[scarphe]

To precisely answer your question on the False ricasso and real ricasso. I would say true enought that a false ricasso is done so to use a french blade, but also a considerable difference between the 2 is that the False ricasso you have the same length of a french blade because you you are not gripping the blade itself but something false. On a real ricasso thoughyou have a shorter balde for you grip a portion of the blade itself and also have stronger attacks.

I hope this may help.

scarphe

[vraptor]

Ooooh, I just gotta wade in on this one. I recently discovered the Italian grip and I've been competing with it. I find it to be very satisfactory once you learn how to use it. In fact, I think it is better than the pistol grips. I have two reasons for saying this. First, the pistol grips tend to rotate your wrist into pronation. This makes for a stronger action, but it is less subtle. Its great for a flick, but if the flick is the only weapon in your arsenal, you're dead meat.

The second reason is that the Italian is the only grip derived from an actual combat grip. If you look at the historical record, rapiers and court swords all had grips very similar to the Italian. I can only believe that pitiless and swift natural selection had something to do with its development.

When I took my Italians to Nationals, I did get some sand from the director and from the Bout Committee, but I stood my ground and told them to take out the rule book and prove that the grip was illegal. The only rule that comes close to applying to the Italian is that the quillons must not extend past the bell guard. They had to allow me to use them. I would have done the entire competition with them, but weak springs in the points made them fail the tests.

[jeff]

If it were easy to mold plastic or aluminum two hundred years ago (Plastic is 20th century, and aluminum was so expensive that even in 19th century a single bar of it was one of the British Crown's treasures!) pistol grips might have replaced Italian a long time ago, perhaps even during the historical period that included drawing blood.

Notwithstanding the above, if you want to use Italian grip, more power to you (I still have some in the basement for sentimental reasons), and good for you to insisting on using your preferred, legal weapon.

[Wizardly]

I'm still hung up on "pistol grips tend to rotate your hand into pronation." :::supinates hand::: I don't see it. I'm inclined to believe that people just don't know how to use a pistol grip correctly and put a death-grip on the thing and use their elbows and wrists (rather than wrists and fingers). My only problem with pistol grips is that they're typically too small (and I don't ever see managing to get my fingers on the ricasso of an Italian comfortably).

As for the argument that it's derrived from a combat grip...materials asside (a very good point) you also have to understand that these are the days before ergonomics, human factors, etc... Also interesting is that firearms of that era were largely straight-gripped or slightly curved too. Those grips sort of bent over time as well. I'm sure if thrusting blades led the way instead of firearms, pistols today would have what is known as a "rapier grip."

Another thing to consider is that looking good was just as important as being useful in the courts...and Italian grips just look a little cooler.

Just keep an open mind. History and tradition aren't always correct. Ask yourself what you're doing on your current grip that you can't do on a different grip. Asside from "flick," I'm guessing the number 1 answer is "feel comfortable."

[jeff]

Wizardly makes good points. I didn't respond to the part about hand position, but I don't see it either: I just think that a lot of people are poorly trained.

I guess also in the pre-electric days the Italian had the advantage of being ambidextrous (and you can still hold it in either hand even with electric if you must), which saved money for the salle: didn't have to stock separate left and right handed weapons.

I *imagine* that it's possible to flick with an Italian grip, but the set of fencers that like to flick is probably totally different from the set of fencers that like Italian.

[vraptor]

Let's not put the historical cart before the technological horse. There were lots of metals and materials that could have made VERY handsome pistol grips (ivory for one) had they had the modern anatomical knowlege of the hand. Recall that the first orthopedic was designed by a physician for a fencer whose grip strength had been compromised by war injury. The Italian grip was the pragmatic outcome of a lot of experimentation without really understanding the physics of sword-hand system.

History aside, being a physicist, I did some experiments (can't help it... we do that) with my pistol grips and my Italian. The only nice thing about backyard meth labs is that when the owner closes shop (gets arrested) it puts some very accurate lab balances in pawn shops. I got one and weighed two different pistol grips and an Italian. I then measured the cg of all of the weapons. What I found was that the balance point of the Italian was far closer to the guard and that made the weapon's point a lot quicker.

In fact, both of the competitive pistol grips I own are much heavier at the business end and therefore somewhat slower. What makes them as quick as they are is that they are lighter by a few grams than the Italian. I think this may be a big reason that people don't fence with them. The quicker point takes a lot of getting used to because pistols tend to make you use your forearm more than the French grip we all learned on. If you use pistol techniques with an Italian, the point is going to be "flighty" and since point control is what eats a lot of people's lunches, the grip has earned a poor reputation.