Flicks - Part II

[Craig]

Okay - we went way off topic in the last thread so I closed it down so we can start fresh.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss how, in sport fencing, to best defend against or execute the flick attack/riposte, not to debate the merits of flicking vs. not flicking.

With that said -

The flick is best defeated by using your distance (just like any other attack). The flick requires a precise control of distance by the flicker and any radical changes in your distance will alter their "shot" and give it a decent chance of missing.

When you are going against someone who attacks with the flick and you want to try out the distance defense, you will need to get them to commit to the attack, so feint a counter-attack (straight lunge) or point in line to get them to finish. Then, right before they are about to land, step in with a large step while at the same time straightening your back to stand tall. This alters the distance and angle of your back and shoulder, increasing the probability that the flick will land flat.

If the flick does miss or land flat, you are in good position for an infighting counter-attack. You will have one (maybe 2) chances to get a point out of this move before your opponent adjusts.

There are other distance tricks as well as good parry-riposte techniques that you can use. I suggest we keep this thread to discussing those.

Cheers,
Craig


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Craig Harkins
craig@fencing.net
Webmaster, Fencing.Net

[Zelda]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, flicks can be useful if used correctly. I personally find a straight feint, then flick to the flank works well with fencers who are about my level or slightly above. It probably helps that I'm a lefty. As Craig said distance is a good thing, but flat flicks hurt, so how do we avoid it?

[Dorian]

Distance would bethe obvious defense, as it is for all attacks. But I was wondering if theer was a particualr parry against the flick which would be useful when your are closer?

Thanks,
Dorian

[Wizardly]

In case I didn't mention it before, keep your eyes open for preparation. Fencers who flick but don't know how sometime have the habit of jumping at their opponent while in preparation, in which case a simple counterattack will not only work wonders, but piss them off (and if they get REALLY pissed off, they fight with the director, giving you points for cards ).

[Craig]

Re: Flicks that land flat hurt.

In my experience with flicks, the ones that hurt are the ones executed by fencers who are not as good with it or are just learning how to flick.

If I were fencing someone at Jon's level and they missed the flick, it probably would not land flat since they know not to follow through with a cut. A beginner who is enraptured with the flick, however, is dangerous because they land flat all the time and give you welts across the back.

If that is the case, then either step in closer with a wide parry (sabre head parry or a wide tierce parry) followed by straight thrust, OR hit with a stop thrust and then retreat with your parry to extend the distance and make your parry easier to execute.

Cheers,
Craig

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Craig Harkins
craig@fencing.net
Webmaster, Fencing.Net

[fat Boy Ed]

the flick ,like any other action, must be understood and accepted in order to defeat the it. The great flickers have a better than average control of footwork, distance, and the variability of tempo. Thus in order to beat the flick YOU must also get better at those things. When working on your feet learn to vary the amout of space you give or take.This way when you see a preparation you can decide to defend or attack. Work on flick specific parries- the "lifted eight parry" is quite useful. This parry is not conventional ,so here is how it works:

As the flick develops, ( in this case to the back/top of weapon shoulder) ,maintain the fencing measure as you drop the weapon into guard in 8,wait until full committal then parry upward to about mask level and angle the weapon outward away from your target. The flick should land on your strong and would be re-directed toward the bell guard. At this point you can riposte by counter flick to his/her back,desingage to their low line or force (bind) into their chest.

This works quite well for me.


All the best Fat Boy Ed

[Zelda]

Fat Boy Ed,
That sounds similar to what my coach is doing with me except I'm doing it in septime as I'm a lefty. Its odd as I can flick to flank fairly ok now, but still don't seem to have the strength to flick to the shoulder/back. I suppose it will come eventually...... As for keeping distance with flick happy fencers, I do that, its just that these 2 people tend to get particulary violent when flicking, I have the bruises to prove it!

[fat Boy Ed]

Hi Zelda

I fenced lefty for a couple of years. Try a beat flick chest, As that gets taken seriously ,your opponent will parry his four then you can beat pause,( as your opponent parries)then flick to shoulder. Also from your six ,try a circular bind/flick to shoulder. This works great. as the straight attack comes at you,do a circular six such that when you finish their weak is on your strong with you on the inside ( just make sure their tip is well away from your target), then flick to the shoulder or chest. Cake!

have fun flicking

All the best Fat Boy Ed

[Wizardly]

Just thought I would point out the KISS principle... keep it simple, stupid. The flick, for all of its flair, speed, and its ability to inflict pain, is often a low percentage shot. If someone gets flick happy, and it looks more like a saber than foil, a simple extension does wonders. It takes a lot less time and effort to extend your arm, and it makes a good, abrupt change of tactic to suddenly extend.

A strategy against those who fly down the strip in preparation and let the flick fly: retreat like mad until you can either break distance, and then jump back and immediately extend. Your opponent has been in preparation the whole time and you have right of way as long as you don't keep moving back after the extension.

If you can't break distance, right about when you are in range for a flick (it takes some adapting to your opponent, how they like to finish the charge), step in.

The idea behind both is to take control of the tempo, preferrably while not letting them know you are doing so. Sometimes, you can catch your opponent counting tempo, and you can use that beat to figure out when to move (pump their arm, step at even pace, look for you to move).

[fat Boy Ed]

Wizardly

If it were so simple to defeat a flick we would not be here discussing it. Only poor ( read: entry level flickers) scream down the strip looking to impale themselves. We fencers who may use the flick now and again actually prefer to have a nice chunk of steel to bounce our flick off of- makes that pesky right of way thing so much simpler.The trick to fooling the opponent is to commit to any given action until the last possible millisecond, this way one still has a bit of time to change the attack on the fly should the need arise. For example should you GIVE a flicker a straight blade he/she could:
parry riposte /bind/take/close- infight, all kinds of stuff, just like any other fencing move.No good fencer is going to hit a point in line with his/her target on purpose. Not for long anyway.

regards Fat Boy Ed

[Wizardly]

I am not saying defending against flicking is easy; I said extending is simple. I am also not saying that it is something that can be done every time. But it is something that you can throw out there every now and again. I don't expect there is any perfect paradigm defense against a flick. And only a poor fencer would "give" his or her opponent the blade anyway. A disengaging is a simple move to avoid getting your blade picked up (which poor fencers also forget to do). The above two tactics are useful at times. I am merely advocating that fencing in a semi-classic style (lunges, etc.), for lack of a better term, is still useful in the age of flick-happy fencers. A fencer should never avoid leaving the blade in front of them because they are affraid of having it picked up... disengage, coupe, whatever...especially against those fencers who like to pick the blade up since some will lose the timing of the attack in doing so.

And I would just like to point out, no fencer intends to get hit period.

[suzy1]

To all-

It was too bad that the last discussion about the flick got so out of hand. I have been fencing for one year now in Florida.

I went to watch a circuit in Florida and I couldn't stop watching Jon Tiomkin fence. It was so exciting atching him hit evryone on the back with such strength. I have trying to flick like that since I started.

I think everyone should leave Jon alone, he's so cute and adorable. Hey Jon, if you're ever in Florida and want to teach me how to flick, give me a ring.

Suzy

[jon]

If you really want to know how to flick. Just forget about all of that technical nonsense. And just take all your bitterness and anger and whip the blade as hard as you can right into your opponents spinal cord.

P.S. If that doesn't work there's always steroids!

Jon Tiomkin

Thanks for the compliment.

[Zelda]

Ok, so we have done the how to, the why to and the how to counteract, so when does a flick/whip call it what you will start having priority? We (the fencers at the club I fence at (well at least 2 of us)) decided its as the point starts coming forward in the action, until then its preperation and oooh so easy to hit into. Any suggestions on a better way to describe it, or are we totally off track?

[fat Boy Ed]

What a great question,Zelda.In my experience Priority is given by your ref. Priority is easier to ascribe when there is blade work- attack/parry /riposte/remise whatever. I think what is most difficult is in the absence of blade category.If ,when the fence command is given, you hold ground while a flicker quickly closes on you and flicks as you ( In your mind see a prep and do your point in line)attack, usually the point will go to the flicker. I'm not saying this is right, only that this how it is. Much of how the bout will go will depend on the first action in a bout. For example. I have found that on the command to fence if one fencer flicks ( wether it lands or not) and the other either flinches before he/she counters or attempts to parry, for the rest of the bout the flicker will have "priority" if he shoots and lands, pretty much regardless of a prep.This is because the "defender" has acknowledged that the flick WAS in fact an ATTACK. Your body language will tell the ref wether or not YOU believe an attack is on the way.If however on the command fence, both fencers,one a flicker and the other a thruster both go forward at the same time, both hit, nothing done, this shows your ref that both fencers are in tempo ,neither is flinching and both CAN attack then for the rest of the bout the ref will make a good effort to differentiate the actions. These are just my experience. I would like to hear of others point of view.

All the best Fat Boy ED

[Zelda]

I only flinch when I get flicked, I think! Thats a very interesting way to look at it Ed. I never took body language to the president into account before. I may have to now! Tempo and timing are the things I have trouble with in presiding a flicker. Its worse if you have 2!

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[jon]

Hey I don't want to burst your bubble. If you flinch in a tournament when someone prepares to flick you. I would think you have some serious issues to address. Such as what kind of people do you fence with? Are they animals? The flick if done properly, really doesn't hurt that much. I won't lie, sometimes you can get zinged pretty hard right on the shoulder bone. But if you are flinching in a tourament maybe it would be wise to save your money, and possibly change clubs.
I will only say this once. And this is what the real rules are and not the ones in the rulebook. Because we all know that we can't learn fencing from books but rather from experience (oh the irony). If you are at a tournament and someone has been flicking you all through the bout (and I've seen this a hundred times) don't just go blindly into their preparation because you won't get the touch. You should either break distance (with the footwork you haven't been practicing) and start your own attack or keep close distance and when your attacker tries to finish, take a huge step in and make the distance so close that he cannot possibly hit you. Unless you are fencing me in which case I will definetly hit you.
And forget about this concept of flinching. Be confident when you fence, don't take **** from anyone. Especially the director!

nd I have never heard a director giving touches regardless of preparation. If you think that this maybe happening to you, call the bout committee over and make sure they see this director.

[Zelda]

Ok, so maybe we dont all have nerves of steel. Yes some of the people I fence with could be classified as "violent" but that wont stop me fencing them. As for not hurting that much, maybe you would like to come and determine weather I have a brusied wrist bone or not from a badly timed flick. Attacks into prep do work occassionally, I'm not saying they work all the time, just when someone is thundering down the strip with their arm oh so obviously preparing for a flick. Besides what makes you think you would hit me if I took a big step in? Is there some trick you are holding out on? As for **** from the director, most of them are good friends who I fence, so I know WHY they call things the way they do. Oh the joy of having a small fencing community. But it still doesn't answer my question WHEN is a flick defined as an attach and WHEN is it preparation?

[fat Boy Ed]

Hi Zelda

The general rule about the flick attack as i have experienced it is that if the body is going forward and the arm has begun to come down then the attack is underway. To get the attack into prep look at the footwork. Poor flickers tend to place the lead foot down first then finish with the flick. A good director will see the foot down and if you can hit your opponent in time you ,most likely will get the right of way. This will probably not work on a good flicker. The big guys are good fencers first ,good flickers second. You'll most likely run into his blade or get riposted by the good ones. Flick monsters tend to be the young brash ,moosh for brains types. remember the flick is just one of the many tools we need to be come good fencers. Aloha

All the best Fat Boy Ed

[suzy1]

Jon-

How how right you are! These people don't listen to you enough. They think they can fence by reading a book or watching a Robin Hood movie. Are there any tapes of you fencing I can buy that you know of? Hugs and kisses.