Flicks - Part II

[suzy1]

Jon-

Not only are you cute and adorable but smart as well!!! You're totally right. When I would fence that guy in my club, I was always thinking, is it going to hurt when it hits me this time or not. I'm definately going to say something to him next time.
So would you really be mad if I wear a "Go Jon" T-shirt when I watch you fence??
-Suzy

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[jon]

yes I really would be angry. And I don't like distractions when I fence. I am kind of an asshole during the competion, its just that emotions run high when your pumped up on adrenaline. So please don't do the T-shirt thing.

thank you
jon

[Zelda]

Ok, I've just realised this and it struck me as odd. People mention flicks, they mention whips and they mention coupe`s. Are they all the same thing? Or different variations? My dictionary (the standard oxford english) says a flick and a whip are 2 different things.... is it the same in fencing?

[Riddle]

What is "flick"? A "flick" is an acceleration of the point. This done by a coupe. Therefore a great deal of force is applied. What is a coupe? A cut over. What other weapon uses a cut? A saber. How do you cut in saber, with a "flick". Except in foil you end with the point, otherwise you opponent maybe a little upset with you. If you stand with a foil in saber guard and you "flick" the point the same way, what is the difference? It is still a cut. Can you do this with a straight blade? Of course. Most of the times the person trying to do the flick has not be train properly, or just decided to give is shot. I don't train my fencers how to use the flick or coupe for a while, until they can do some basic things like learn to avoiding the opponents blade, learning a bind or how to oppose the opponents blade. To defeat it, well, lets go back to saber, keep go distance, play with the tempo, and of course in a good stop thrust "attack in preparation". Try using wider parries. The flick only works if they get past your guard.

[Zelda]

Ok, that answer only confused me more......:-)

[Duffy]

I know this sounds a very epee type thing to do, but when I fence foil (please don't tell anyone) I like to use opposition counter-attacks against people who flick, it's quite effective. Good distance helps too!

[fat Boy Ed]

Hello Zelda

A good flick lands point on and a bad flick does not, and that last one, when it lands flat and it hurts like the dickens is a whip.That is pretty much it.

All the best Fat Boy Ed

[Zelda]

Thanks Ed.... now where does a coupe fit into all of this? Or maybe I dont want to know!

[Link14]

OK Zelda....I'm going to take a shot at this question, but it's rather simplistic, given that I'm a sabre fencer and all..

Riddle was right that a coupe is a "cut-over" but it is more relevant to foil and epee (shudder) than sabre. Think of it as the opposite of a disengage. In a straight attack-disengage, you deceive by moving you blade under your opponents. In a coupe you deceive by bringing it over (or around) the opponents blade.

Example - straight attack to four (high inside), draws opponents parry four, coupe by bringing your blade back (wrist and fingers, not arm!!)then extend and complete attack. The key (from what I've seen) is (1)to threaten and draw the parry and (2) don't pull your arm back or you lose right-of-way. It's hard to do properly...I still mess it up in the heat of the bout.

I think this is sometimes referred to as a flick because the "pull back, push forward" motion can cause the blade to flex..a lot. I don't know if it's still referred to as a coupe if you change lines though.

Hope that explains it a little better. Maybe Ed can provide clarification for me if I'm wrong. Judging from his postings here and in rec.sport.fencing, he knows more about foil than I do. Hopefully I'll be taking the FOIL 1 course at the Coaches College next year, so I can become a little more literate on the subject.

P.S. <<smiling and gritting teeth at the same time>> I do strongly object to Riddle's reference that a sabre cut is a "flick". While an occasional stop-cut may have flickable tendencies, most properly executed sabre cuts (with the edge, not the flat)are not flicks. However, I'll leave it at that because it's not the subject of this thread and I don't think we've answered all of Zelda's questions yet!!

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If the pen is mightier than the sword, the writer must have a heck of a reach!!

[Zelda]

OH! So a coupe is one of THOSE! Its spelt different to how it sounds! I can do them! Thanks everyone... now I'm not so confused.....!

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Save Intervarsity Novice Foil.... contact your state Association (in Australia that is!)

[suzy1]

Jon-
What type of blades do you use to flick? I was thinking of buying those "maragin" types but they're really expensive! Are they worth it? I'll be coming to Palm Springs a couple of days early so let me know if you want to hit the beach with me because I would love to see you in a a bathing suit!!!
-Suzy

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[Zelda]

Suzy, what type of blade you flick with is REALLY a matter of personal preference and what may work for Jon may not necessarily work for you. I have a blade I can flick with that no other lefty seems to be able too. So before you buy your blades play around with them in the shop. Most fencing shops dont mind at all. Maraging are traditionally a little heavier then non-maraging (well mine are) due to the forging process. Hope you enjoy Palm Springs!

[Chris]

on 11-18-99, jon posted:
"yes I really would be angry. And I don't like distractions when I fence. I am kind of an asshole during the competion, its just that emotions run high when your pumped up on adrenaline."

I have news for you, jon...

[jon]

Hey buddy let it go. Relax. Enjoy your thanksgiving.

And yes Zelda is right. I use the square BF maraging. But I have alot more experience and muscle than you do. If you want to flick start by using a flexible france lame blade. Ask your coach about it. I have never seen you fence so I can't just give you advice and have you spend an extra $60 or more on a maraging blade. Just make sure when you get your blade that it flexible in the first 6-8 inches or so from the tip down and that the rest of it is fairly stiff.

jon

[Zelda]

Its just a curiosity thing more then anything, but if anyone could tell me what the difference between say an Ulhmann BF and a straight (if tehre is such a thing) BF it would be appreciated. I know there is such a thing as a BF blue and a BF white but does the forge themselves sell it or does it go through another company?
I'd have to say though, I am learning to flick with a fairly stiff blade, and Its been good for me, as I've had to use it sparingly to save my muscles. I do have a "flicky" blade but everyone still reckons its stiff in comparison... but then again us aussies always seem to get the dud blades.

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End of Season, now I got to find something else to do 3 nights a week!

[suzy1]

Chris - why don't you just shut the #@^$% up. Jon - on another post this guy was mocking me by saying I liked such a loser (you). If I were you, I wouldn't stand for this nonsense - protect yourself and your girl.

I remember this one time when I was 13 and this guy during summer camp was hiding under my bunk bed staring at me and my friends. I told him to get out and he called me some really insulting names (just like Chris did to me before). Well for some reason this got me really mad and I hit him on the head with the broom stick, and then my friend Jenny hit in the crotch with my flashlight.

I know this doesn't have too much to do with flicks but I just get so angry when people are disrespectful.

In any event, Jon, when are you going to Florida, there is this great restaurant I'd love to take you to which serves the best hamburgers on the East Coast. They also have great onion rings. Let me know - I can't wait to see you.

-Suzy

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[thebigriddle]

the ultimate question of how to defend! Nothing is new under the sun! Well, in order to defend from a coupe you have learn how to evade your opponents blade. This means using your distance. If you are far away the opponent can not reach you, if he is too close then his coupe will be passe. You can also time your thrust just as he stepping in with his arm bent depending on the technique of his coupe that is done. Part of learning to "flick" is to learn control. Keeping your distance. A coupe can be used as a secondary intention attack. Meaning that you create an openning and when the opponent see the openning he response with a thrust. I lot of this is very basic to me. Part of learning to defend a coupe some time requires a larger parry. This means that you will have a great distance for your arm to travel when you riposte, so move more quickly. Change in tempo is good fast-slow attack or slow-fast attack can work.

[thebigriddle]

Also to quote Aldo Nadi "A good fencer can fence with a broom handle" How well, you do you technique is up to you. Practice,practice, practice! And remember a good attack can win you the bout!

[Chris]

Sorry, off-thread, but on 11-25-99, Suzy1 posted:

"Chris - why don't you just shut the #@^$% up. Jon - on another post this guy was mocking me by saying I liked such a loser (you)."

Suzy, check the profiles: that wasn't me!
CLH

[mine]

I went into this to learn about flicks....

I am sure somebody would not mind telling me how to start out.
I understand they are an important part of fencing (if you want to get anywhere) but I really don't want to be one of those fencers who annoys everyone because they can't do it properly.
(Charging down the piste throwing flats!)
I am also worried that it will turn into the only thing that I can do, as I have seen happen to others.

Thanks