Y 10 & Y12 National Events

[mtarascio]

I may be in the minority but I do not feel the USFA should be conducting Y10 and Y12 events on the National level. I believe we are doing these young people a disservice as one should be experimenting with many activities in this age group.

I believe these young fencers would benefit much more by competing exclusively on the local/regional level.

Also, the way some of the parents and coaches act at these events............I don't even want to go there.

[edew]

Hence the regional youth circuit events...

[fence1848]

I disagree because many areas do not have many Y12 & Y10 events on the local level. This means that the kids in these areas have to fence someone twice their size. Many kids are intimidated by this and, unfortunately, give up on fencing too early.

Also, in many areas there may not be many good fencers in their age group for their weapon. Because of this, they may develop the mentality that they can't fence against older fencers "because they're bigger than me". If they fence against kids their own age who are extremely good, they will begin to see that size really doesn't matter and that they could be that good, too.

Besides, it's a great place for parents to buy good affordable equipment for their kids. Maybe do some shopping for their birthday present.

[Mo]

I just ran the question by my daughter who started as a Y10 fencer about her take on National Competitions for Y10-Y12.

She says they are good and of course should be in the National Competition Circuit. One big reason is to get points and be able to move up to the higher levels. A Y12 fencer cannot fence in Y14 unless they have points on Y12 etc.

Another is it gets the kids used to fencing many fencers from all over the country and they can actually see if they are as good as they think they are.

They get to meet their competition and form long lasting friendships. They get to see how the older fencers fence! They get the picture in their head of where they need to be. They feel part of fencing. They are included.

There is so much age discrimination now that no Y10 or Y 12 events would just add to the isolation that younger kids feel. Another benefit is for them to see what is possible and what it will take to win. The last year of Y12 is a remarkable change for most young people. They grow and end up being so much more mature and older looking than they were even six months before. It adds a forewarning of what is to come and how good a kid can get in the early years.

It should be considered an educational experience. As far as trying many activities, what if they already have? By the time my kid started fencing they had tried all kinds of sports. Both of them knew from end of their first class they wanted to fence more than anything else. Even if they want to try something else competing in a national event IS an amazing experience. Summer Nationals are so cool. It will be so nice to see all the parents and other people there.

__________________
Mo

[JEC]

I agree with Mo. My son is 11 and this Summer is competing in his 4th Summer National. He loves to compete with kids of greater ability. Only the top 6 kids in the Southwest RYC are typically competing at NACs or Summer Nationals despite that some competions are 30-40 fencers. Obviously, this Summer we are going to have many more Southwest kids competing as it is in Austin. The strength of the National circuit is much greater than the regional tournaments even in a region that has produced three of the last four national Y10ME champs.

[Inquartata]

We live in an age in which it is almost impossible to rise to preeminence in any given endeavor without starting young, specializing young and practicing intensively, if not very nearly exclusively, in that one activity. Fencing is less extreme in that regard than some other activities, like music performance, but the principle is the same.

If a young person is fencing because they want to do so, these events are valuable. If someone is twisting their arms, they probably oughtn't be fencing in them...but the USFA is there to provide opportunities, not to determine outcomes...and certainly not to decide what's"best" for young fencers. That's a job for the fencers and their parents, not a bureaucracy.

[edew]

Originally posted by fence1848
I disagree because many areas do not have many Y12 & Y10 events on the local level. This means that the kids in these areas have to fence someone twice their size. Many kids are intimidated by this and, unfortunately, give up on fencing too early.

Also, in many areas there may not be many good fencers in their age group for their weapon. Because of this, they may develop the mentality that they can't fence against older fencers "because they're bigger than me". If they fence against kids their own age who are extremely good, they will begin to see that size really doesn't matter and that they could be that good, too.

Besides, it's a great place for parents to buy good affordable equipment for their kids. Maybe do some shopping for their birthday present.

I don't understand your argument for disagreement. The Regional Youth Circuits are youth events only. They are fairly local, as there are many more regional youth circuits held throughout the season than there are NACs (or possible NACs for youths).

In the RYCs, a Y10 fencer will have the opportunity to fence against other Y10 fencers, not forced to fence people twice their size, unless there are some very large Y10 fencers (and I've seen some fairly big ones: they stick their arms out and all the little ones eventually get impaled on them).

If a Y10 fencer wishes to fence against a Y14 fencer at a RYC, that's all right, just as a Y10 fencer is allowed to fence against a Y14 fencer in a YNAC.

The regionalness of the RYC is anything that region chooses it to be. We in the Bay Area have the Bay Cup which is specifically aimed at the fencers in the SF Bay Area. Those from outside the area are welcome to attend, but are not required to come. I am working to help those other areas develop a RYC system within their own defined boundaries.

A general rule of thumb for a RYC is 3 hours by car from a central location where there is a strong concentration of fencing.

Now, if you live in the boondocks and are nowhere less than 8 hours by car to any other fencing venue, well, you're pretty much $crewed. But the demographics also suggests that the number of such potential fencers are small (otherwise, there would be a concentration of fencers...), hence it's not likely that "many kids" will be negatively affected by RYCs.

[Queen of Hearts]

Originally posted by fence1848
I disagree because many areas do not have many Y12 & Y10 events on the local level. This means that the kids in these areas have to fence someone twice their size.

I dissagree too. I mean I went to a fairly large local tournament last weekend and I was the youngest there- 12. the closest to my age was 15. Also I meet and talk to a lot of people at national tournaments, so it is good in the social manor too. Also, they don't treat it entirly like everyone else- I mean we didn't have to QUALIFY for nationals. And besides it gets us ready for when we DO fence in Y14 and up. And another thing, if you are going to have a national Y14 competion why not draw more fencers to the tournamet by haveing Y12, because if you have Y12 and the fencers are there any ways then they fence in Y14- That is the way I find it. Also it can be considered a learning expireince which is good for youth fencers.

[fence1848]

Originally posted by edew
I don't understand your argument for disagreement. The Regional Youth Circuits are youth events only. They are fairly local, as there are many more regional youth circuits held throughout the season than there are NACs (or possible NACs for youths).

A general rule of thumb for a RYC is 3 hours by car from a central location where there is a strong concentration of fencing.

Now, if you live in the boondocks and are nowhere less than 8 hours by car to any other fencing venue, well, you're pretty much $crewed. But the demographics also suggests that the number of such potential fencers are small (otherwise, there would be a concentration of fencers...), hence it's not likely that "many kids" will be negatively affected by RYCs.

Edew,
I believe you may be fortunate where you are. The east coast does not have a very convenient set of these regional youth circuit events. I used to live in the D.C. area, which has a huge concentration of fencers. The closest regional youth events were in Alabama, NC, and NY/NJ.

Unfortunately, RYCs will often have some of the same criteria necessary for a national event - a large affordable venue in an affordable city. This often cuts down on the ability to geographically centralize the venue of the event.

In fact, I think most of the Youth NACs were closer to DC than any of the RYCs (the second-to last youth NAC was in NY).

[Queen of Hearts]

I agree completly.

[edew]

The recent YNACs have been in Louisville, Saratoga Springs NY, and the recent Overland Park KS. I don't think any of them beat NY/NJ for closeness to DC.

Also, you're not required to be beholden to those RYCs. You don't need a large venue.

There are many clubs in the DC area, and if you include most of South and North Jersey and Philadelphia, and Virginia, that's a decent concentration of fencing, all within a 3 hour drive (and with a fairly consistent Amtrak along that corridor, that makes even traffic a less of an issue).

So, coordinate with the Philly, S/N Jersey clubs, with the Virginia and Western Maryland clubs. Round up enough Y10 and Y12 and Y14 fencers to fill a basketball gym with fencers for the weekend. That's about 8-12 strips depending on the size of the gym floor. To make things worthwhile, you'll need about 150 fencers for about 250 entries.

Because it's an RYC, you (at least for now) don't need grounded strips. Just use masking tape to mark out the boundary of the playing field and voila. If they charge $1000/day for the place, you can still make a good go at having it and still come out ahead with money. There's no standardization for RYC entry fees, but assume something on the order of $25/20 or $30/$25 for registration/entry fee.

Call ahead to assemble the referees and hire two armorers...

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by fence1848
Edew,
I believe you may be fortunate where you are. The east cost does not have a very convenient set of these regional youth circuit events. I used to live in the D.C. area, which has a huge concentration of fencers. The closest regional youth events were in Alabama, NC, and NY/NJ.

travel from DC to NY/NJ is HARDLY unreasonable. thats, what, 4 hours???

Also, DC IS a large concentration of fencers. your complaint shouldn't be with the RYC system, but with the Capitol division, which should be running a RYC. Remember, any division can choose to run one.

Even if capitol DOES start running their own, I'd say its still worth your while to come to the NY/NJ, CT, and Boston RYC's, as the kids end up getting some great experience. This is especially true of the NYC and CT ones, due to their proximity to FC.

-m

[Peach]

When my daughter first started fencing, it was neat to go to her first JOs (back when the youth events were part of it) and other national events. These days I'm not so sure I would take her to them at that age. The regional events sound like a good idea, though they too will have some of the same problems soon enough. Of course, since I'm a sabre referee, I probably see the worst of the coach/parent thing. (Oh, yeah, and I'm a prep school teacher so I'm overdosed).

A lot of a kid's experience of a tournament of these things has to do not with the national competition but with whether their coaches (and more importantly, parents) have a grip on their own ambitions. I remember a top referee asking me once why I made my daughter compete the way I did, and I said I never made her do anything. My daughter (now college age and still fencing, though rugby is her hobby and fencing is "what she does") had a hearty laugh over that when I reported it to her. Just because kids are grouchy, intense, moody, and even occasionally prone to crying at tournaments doesn't mean their parents (or their referees, or their coaches) made them do it . . . it used to exasperate us but she was always outraged when we suggested trying some other activity.

[epeemike81]

realistically, what needs to change isn't the competitions, its the emphasis. coaches and parents need to emphasize the developmental aspect instead of the results (Y14 is borderline. at that level you can start thinking about results). don't deny the kids the opportunity because of the dumb parents and coaches, though. maybe the refs just need to be a little quicker with that spectator warning.

-m

[Catlady]

with the caveat that I don't have children of my own and that I was even remotely into anything resembling serious organized sport as a child--I ran around and played with my friends and even took riding lessons but for the most part nothing that involved much competition--I have to say I agree with epeeMike.

I too know of cases where parents just completely push their kids too hard and it's terrible. The thing is with the really bad pushy fencing parents I can't help thinking that if they weren't making their kid's live miserable through fencing they'd just do it elsewhere. If they weren't pushy fencing parents they'd be pushy tennis parents--btw it was funny to hear the father of the William's sisters (in tennis for those who don't know) say that his girls stopped playing the junior circuit because he just couldn't stand the tennis parents --, or ice skating parents, or soccer parents, or for that matter musical instrument or dance parents. Yes, the sport offers them a venue in which they try to vicariously live through their children or prove their worth as parents by proving that they have the best child, but if there weren't Y10 or Y12 competitions these parents would still carry on in their behavior.

At that age (under 12) kids probably shouldn't be fiercely competitive and going to every competition they can, but I say if they're having fun and want to do it there's no reason why they can't within reason--meaning that the parents still have to be in charge and if the fencing is adversely affecting school, or taking up too much time they should cut back or say no completely.

I know it's a hard balance between the fact that if they want to keep going they have to take things seriously, but not having them take it so seriously that fencing is just more work. I don't know how to put it. As for me as an adult I think it's possible to both be serious and have fun. As far as fencing ability Iris Zimmerman and Co. have nothing to worry about in me and I know it so maybe that's different. But anyway, I have a total blast fencing--despite having one coach say repeatedly "There is no 'ha-ha' in fencing", I admit that I have been known to laugh on strip and see nothing wrong with it and there are times during practice bouts with friends when I goof around a little--on the other hand I am very competitive and give as much time as I feel I can to being a better fencer, though I get lazy every so often. Part of the fun for me is landing those really pretty touches or getting touches on or even beating people who I'm not supposed to be able to keep up with. Then maybe it's adult perspective as well as being aware of my own lack of potential. Someone observed on this board a while ago that even after they win the juniors (refer not just to those in the official junior category, but everyone younger than the seniors and vets) always look incredibly serious. Last night at fencing a friend of mine observed the same thing. On the other hand I know juniors at my club who are good and are serious about competiing, but who also have a good time, so like I said, I think it's possible.

And Peach, unfortunately the competitive parent thing isn't just present in private schools. At least in the neighborhood I grew up in it was unspoken tradition in elementary school that on your birthday you brought treats of some kind to share with your class. When I was that age it was usually just some cookies, cupcakes or rice crispie treats. Nothing fancy. It was perfectly acceptable to just run to the store, get cupcakes and then bring them to school. I hear from a teacher at the same school that they have now stopped doing it because it eventually became a competition between the parents to see who could make the most impressive, elaborate, or expensive treats for their kid's birthday. I doubt the kids, being kids cared much as long as they got treats, but anyway. . . Of course this is a mostly middle class to upper middle class neighborhood so in some ways it's probably somewhat similar to what happens at private schools since most of these people could afford to send their kids to a private school if they wanted to. Anway, sad.

[Mo]

Originally posted by Catlady

I too know of cases where parents just completely push their kids too hard and it's terrible. The thing is with the really bad pushy fencing parents I can't help thinking that if they weren't making their kid's live miserable through fencing they'd just do it elsewhere.

At that age (under 12) kids probably shouldn't be fiercely competitive and going to every competition they can, but I say if they're having fun and want to do it there's no reason why they can't within reason--meaning that the parents still have to be in charge and if the fencing is adversely affecting school, or taking up too much time they should cut back or say no completely.

I know it's a hard balance between the fact that if they want to keep going they have to take things seriously, but not having them take it so seriously that fencing is just more work. I don't know how to put it. As for me as an adult I think it's possible to both be serious and have fun.

Catlady,
You make some excellent points. I know many parents who are so into their kid's grades and school and use that as a basis for being pushy.

There is another angle though that too many people and especially parents, overlook. Kids are forced on a daily basis to give work, like school work, value in their lives.

For a child to function well and be happy they need all kinds of choices, control and imput into what is valuable to them and how they spend their time. For so many kids who are not all that successful in academics, the extra curricular activities are the only things that keep some kids from being completely miserable.

It is widely believed that if fencing interferes with school they should have to back off of fencing. In many instances fencing may be the only time kid is where they are in control over what they are doing and is the one thing they truly enjoy.

I really think that y10, 12 and 14 events teach so much and the kids that really thrive on competition need the outlet.

[Catlady]

Mo, I agree completely. It's sad that kids are so programmed today. I understand that when you have kids you want the best for them and want them to have every advantage in life that they can get, but the truth is your child will probably grow up to be just fine,-- happy well-adjusted, sucessful-- even if they aren't bilingual by the time they start pre-school, or some other such non-sense. For that matter, they may even wind up better off ultimately than the kids who get pushed super hard.

Anyway, just to clarify what I mean by compromising school, I realize some kids are good at school, some aren't. I always was, but was terrible at sports so it was the other way around for me. I don't mean that the kids have to get straight "A"s. If they're doing the best they can that's enough. But if they're not handling both homework and school then maybe it's a sign that they're just not ready to handle the added pressure and they need to cut back until they are. As far as time, by taking up too much time I mean to the point where it's doing damage, physically and mentally to the child in question. If the child likes it, obviously they'll want to do it a lot, but when they reach the point where they're just driving themselves too hard I think you have to step in.

Anyway, you sound like a great Mom. I know, from your posts, that you're a great advocate for your kids and that you really try to understand how they work. More fencing parents should be like you, and Peach, and less like the semi-notorious others we've all run across.

[Mo]

Originally posted by Catlady

Anyway, you sound like a great Mom. I know, from your posts, that you're a great advocate for your kids and that you really try to understand how they work. More fencing parents should be like you, and Peach, and less like the semi-notorious others we've all run across.

Thanks Cat!! That is a nice thing to say. I would like to be an advocate for any kid that needs one too.