Loud People on the Piste

[Catal]

I wonder when USFencing is going to get the clue and start penalzing people for acting like brats on the strip:


http://www.msnbc.com/news/925166.asp?cp1=1

[MyrddinsPrecint]

different game!

since the begining of swordplay, back to it's original roots, people would insult each other while fencing to try and make the other person off-balance. today, it's a lot more controled, a lot more regulated, but it's still part of the game- trying to get your opponent off balance.

that said, do i scream/grunt/say things?

no.

because i'm not good enough.

when i get to a point where i'm good enough to know instintively the propper time for a nice bellow, i do intend to. i'm quite looking forward to it.

[Queen of Hearts]

I personaly strongly disslike people who scream and say things while fencing. But, If you are going to do it have some fun. Do it at the 'wrong' time. For instance scream and get all upset when you score and get all happy when they score on you. I would not do that but it would be nice to see someone try it.

[Catal]

Originally posted by MyrddinsPrecint
different game!

since the begining of swordplay, back to it's original roots, people would insult each other while fencing to try and make the other person off-balance. today, it's a lot more controled, a lot more regulated, but it's still part of the game- trying to get your opponent off balance.

And, you people wonder why fencing isn't on television.

Who taught you that screaming after a point was part of sport fencing? If you're going to say something, please support it. Some of us take this sport seriously, and I'd much rather get into a debate with someone who can make arguments based on historically documented evidence. Just where on the Egyptian temple describing a fencing bout was it made clear that screaming at an opponent was part of the game?

[pkt]

I was watching the 2002 WC tapes from Eric - why just the Final bout for men's sabre and all 3 bouts for Women's??? Was that all that was shown on Europsort? - AZE JEMAEVA Elena who finished 2nd in Women's Sabre, her theatrics was offputting.

That said, the producer seemed intent on showcasing her theatrics more than the eventual winner's - CHN TAN Xue - almost aenemic screams in comparison.

Since I don't travel to big tournaments any more, I saw the same theatrics in the Western Canadian Championships. The women sabreures' scream was too much. I was refing another event and my ears hurt from their screams...

Ladies, tone it down!!!
Tone down the theatrics.

This is the way I look at it.
To win is expected of you.
If you scream and jump about because you got THAT hit shows that you didn't expect to get That hit...

Guess that's one reason I like Nelson Mendela's father's quotation - see below - or call it the 'Charlie Brown's due consideration for the loser'.

OK, you've got That hit, or better yet, you've won the bout, no need to prance about and scream your head off as if you didn't expect that to happen.

Look at the great champions, for one RUS POZDNIAKOV Stanislaw. Did he scream and jump about after he beat Pillet? No!. Just a little deep knee bend as if he's praying... Or Touya who won the previous year. In Touya's case the team celebration showed that they didn't expect Touya to beat POZDNIAKOV.

They didn't jump from one end of the piste to the other... that's excessive.

Know what will happen? The FIE would clamp down on these unseemly theatrics, just you wait.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

i never said screaming was part of the original fencing thing, i said the exchange of insults...

just look at the movies and books!!

what started many swordfights?

an insult to a nobleman's honor that couldn't escape unpunished.

and why stop once you've started??


and, yes, granted, it does get ugly and excessive a lot. and if one person is yelling and the other isn't, then it's just silly.

but i always prefer to watch a gold medal bout between two people who like to yell. it's more expressive, more interesting, and it makes it easier for innocent bystanders to understand what the hell is going on.

no, i don't wonder why fencing isn't on TV. but i don't think THIS is the reason why....

and are you insinuating that i don't take this sport seriously? excuse me, do you KNOW me? have you ever had a convorsation with me? i've threatened to beat people senseless on this board i've gotten so frustrated with them (epeemike)--- but i've never actually been offended- that, as an extremely cheap shot- came close.

i'm captain of my team next year. i take the sport seriously. as do a lot of other people, a lot of those people yell.

yelling, when done properly, not excessively, and under the right circumstances, adds to the drama of fencing. just because someone yells doesn't make them immature, young, or uninvolved in the sport.

in fact, if i'm not mistaken (and i'm not, i triple checked myself)- i know a SECTION CHAIR who happens to make noise occationally. are you going to accuse a section chair of being immature, or someone who doesn't take the sport seriously? because, really, THAT would be an interesting argument.

[pkt]

MyrddinsPrecint

To answer your rhetorical question, I personally prefer fencers who don't NEED to grunt or scream.

I prefer fencers who go on the piste and do a PROFESSIONAL, WORKMANLIKE performance and let their blades do the screaming and hollering. Let their brilliance show through their work. Not through their screamS or worse yet, their theatrics.

Imagine an instrumental musician who NEEDs to scream and jump about on stage to make his/her performance rather than let his / her instrument do all the performing...

Your choice.

PK

[MyrddinsPrecint]

when you get a really really really nice touch, have you ever felt excited? known you'd done a really great job? wanted everyone to know? especially the director, who is influenced at least a little by the screams....

lots of good fencers have....

even people who don't like screaming, don't think it's appropriate, should be able to if they need to--

if you have a bad director who's easily swayed by screaming, and your opponent screams at every 2 light, and starts getting touches that are yours, shouldn't you be able to yell convincingly, the same way you should be able to adapt to other bad calls your director makes, by attacking a different way, etc.....

sure, it's nice when really good fencers, who are clearly better than their oponent dont' gloat. if someone yelled when fencing me, it wouldn't be approriate. but it's completely appropriate when the two fencers are similar in skill, and either might win. it's even more appropriate if both fencers know each other, and are comfortable with agressive competition, including yelling, with each other...

if excessively done, it is silly and immature.

when properly done, it makes the day more fun.

i'm from a division that often sees people stay to see the gold medal bouts.... other people were complaining... maybe there's some connection?

[edew]

PKT, What I got from Peter G is what you see, the only editing I did was to compile same weapon bouts into their own tapes.

As for screaming, is Sabresque reading this thread? Perhaps she can add her $0.02 about this. IN ALL CAPS, OF COURSE.

[NJP3]

I yell and groan on the strip, but it's not to intimidate or be a bad sport, when I let out a noise on the strip with a touch it is a release of energy and I cant control it. The only time I acutally yell is when I am really upset with my fencing and am losing to someone I shouldnt be. (this is a bad habit I am trying to break though). However I do compliment my opponent when they score a good touche on me. And I am always a good sport, shake hands, and compliment the fencer afterwards.

[Mo]

Originally posted by pkt
MyrddinsPrecint


Imagine an instrumental musician who NEEDs to scream and jump about on stage to make his/her performance rather than let his / her instrument do all the performing...

Your choice.

PK

You want to talk about theatrix have you EVER been in a band or orchestra when the person playing next to you is dipping and swaying all over the place?? I sure have. It is so distracting.

There are degrees of everything. A little screaming at good times is good. Acting like a jack a$$ never is.

Fencers build up a lot of emotion when they fence, they need to let it out some how BUT screaming so people near by are in pain is really over doing it.

[Dragonfly]

I don't think the word 'grunt' is becoming or accurate. I wonder if there weren't some jealousy involved?

Jealousy plays a loud part in the yelling issue. Men yell also, so women shouldn't be censured for yelling. I used to yell, and I believe in yelling for the sake of it is healthy. However, I have noticed that by not yelling I fence better.

[Peach]

Funny, the yelling doesn't bother me, and I'm always surprised that people feel so strongly about it. It doesn't bother me as a referee, and it doesn't bother me in opponents. I yell sometimes when I fence, especially when my intensity level is up and I manage to pull off something hard. It's like winning the lottery, it's that intense. Heck, if fencing didn't excite me that much I wouldn't do it.

I do have a problem with shriekers, mind you, but that's because I'm an elementary teacher and that particular level of sound reminds me of the cafeteria at lunch time.

[wflaschka]

Someone asked is screaming a part of sport fencing? Sure. Proof:

Step 1: Go to tournament, witness screaming.
Step 2: Done.

Why scream? Apart from the cynical reasons (manipulation, intimidation), it's largely a release of tension. For me, it's almost autonomic. Like the ki-ai when you're breaking a piece of wood in karate. It's a focuser, adrenalizer, and release, all in one. Also, sport psychology-wise, self-reward and self-talk are significant zone tools.

When I'm under control, I may say et la, but that's really just to make a little slap in the face to the opponent: it reveals that you didn't have to try, you could still patronizingly utter a little French bon mot. Like Scaramouche composing couplets in a duel. When I'm thoroughly invested in a touch, and I'm reaching past my normal performance levels -- and it lands -- then comes whatever naturally comes from the natural release.

Or, let's say I find a bout exciting, and the world shrinks away, and I'm living in my hand -- and I score -- am I going to stand up, stare woodenly at my opponent, and stolidly trudge back to the en guard line? Durr! At the very least: Fa-shoooo! Sometimes under my breath. If nothing else, the opponent knows how close it came. Myself, I appreciate when someone is joyous after being able to score on me.

World-class fencers, especially, become heavily emotionally invested in their bouts. The videos say yes. Even the most reputable fencers vocalize following an intense effort. Also: Peter Westbrook: Bo-bo-bo-bo. Mormando: Ho-ho. I don't remember Michael Marx's vocalization. Good fencers don't shout all the time, only when it comes naturally -- that's because it's a natural thing. One action later, they're acknowledging a touch.

This isn't a whole-team end-zone dance, like they banned in football. Heck, even in Golf, the most unadrenalized sport I can imagine, they shout.

and, yes, granted, it does get ugly and excessive a lot. and if one person is yelling and the other isn't, then it's just silly.

Also, if they're of equal skill, I know who will win. Fencing screams are like music to my ears. But then, sweaty jackets are like roses to my nose.

[Sarah]

I don't have a problem with sceamers as lond as there's a reason for it... like when I get a beautiful touch that took effort then I'll add a nice AYY-YAAA! Or ach, or Ay-Yuch.... depends on the moment. I try not to sceam eccessively though...

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Catal
And, you people wonder why fencing isn't on television.

Actually, I don't think screaming has ANYTHING to do with why fencing isn't on television. in fact, I would guess that if anything screaming has a POSITIVE effect on fencing's chances to be on television. bouts with screamers are MUCH more exciting than those with equally good fencers who are quiet as a churchmouse.

-m

[afc fencer]

I love screaming. I think screaming is great for spectators. I rember watching Jemaeva on tape did something clearly hers, she screams in the persons face and shakes her fist Now maybe that what wasn't the nicest thing to do but it sure was fun to watch.

Ive got a close friend, (mo you would know the girl im talking about she goes to your club) who just goes nuts during the bout, shes not really thinking about screaming she just needs to, however sometimes its little to much and ive told her that maybe she should be a lil more calm. But when you watch her bouts or any one whos an excited fencer its alot more fun to watch. It sort of personalizes it more. Its like you know how there feeling and you sort of start to get into it more.

[Catal]

i never said screaming was part of the original fencing thing, i said the exchange of insults...

Again, you said this goes back to the roots of swordplay/fencing... the roots of being Egypt, so where is the proof?


an insult to a nobleman's honor that couldn't escape unpunished.

You keep making references to Europe as though it were the root of swordplay and fencing. Again, it is not. Where is your proof in documented history? Also, stick to the sport aspect of things. We're talking about sport fencers, not killers.


but i always prefer to watch a gold medal bout between two people who like to yell.

Good for you. Since you haven't noticed, television sports have a thing called public image. Public image helps keep a sport popular. Fencing has no public image, but everyone has an opinion of it... that opinion being, as Peter Westbrook (and many others) has stated, is that if you're a fencer, you're probably not straight. Either that, or you're into D&D. Or, you're a rich fop. Movie swashbucklers are cool, sport fencers are not. Why? Because Hollywood knows how to make a public image, and make it stick. USFA has no agenda, and so we get pushed around at events like the Titan Games, which we were all assured what showcase fencing. Yeah, that turned out grand.


it's more expressive, more interesting, and it makes it easier for innocent bystanders to understand what the hell is going on.

What bystanders? No, really... what bystanders? At every NAC I've been too, I'll see maybe a couple dozen onlookers from outside who take a look around, then leave. Is my experience a rare one? Has anyone else noticed that the only time people watch fencing is when we pay for open exhibits?


and are you insinuating that i don't take this sport seriously?

No, I'm telling you that you don't take this sport seriously. Anyone who takes this sport seriously would have known after three years of saber that fencing never started with the "nobleman." It started with the Egyptians, the Romans, the Byzantines...


have you ever had a convorsation with me? i've threatened to beat people senseless on this board

Let's see... do I care? Nope.


i'm captain of my team next year.

Anyone who has been on a college team knows how to get these things. "Hey, you wanna captain next year?" "Nah, I've got too many classes. You?" "Yeah, sure I'll captain." Big deal, you title means nothing to me. Show some credentials, then we'll say, "Oh, how nice."


i take the sport seriously.

Uh, huh. Obviously, not seriously enough to know that the roots of fencing are not European in nature. You keep making these banal references to nobleman... Hey, captain... get a clue... 1190BC Luxor, Egypt... that's where fencing started.


in fact, if i'm not mistaken (and i'm not, i triple checked myself)-i know a SECTION CHAIR who happens to make noise occationally.

Are we supposed to be impressed that your section chair occassionally makes noises? From where do these noises come, I ask? And, do I care? Again, the answer is no. I know lots of Sections Chairs and Fencing Congress reps who don't make noise... again, you and your one esteemed Section Chair mean nothing.

are you going to accuse a section chair of being immature, or someone who doesn't take the sport seriously?

Well, if he's anything like you... yes, I would accuse him of not taking the sport seriously.


Wflaschka, it was stated that insults are part of fencing because noblemen did it. Your example is simple, but if we take it further we see that screaming matches on the piste are inappropriate. Tiger Woods doesn't scream and then repeat and then scream at his opponents. Once is enough, and that is all.

[Catal]

Originally posted by epeemike81
Actually, I don't think screaming has ANYTHING to do with why fencing isn't on television. in fact, I would guess that if anything screaming has a POSITIVE effect on fencing's chances to be on television. bouts with screamers are MUCH more exciting than those with equally good fencers who are quiet as a churchmouse.

-m

Well... fencers have been screaming for a long time now. A very long time. Anybody see fencing on TV... Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?

[Dragonfly]

Originally posted by MyrddinsPrecint
when you get a really really really nice touch, have you ever felt excited? known you'd done a really great job? wanted everyone to know? especially the director, who is influenced at least a little by the screams....

ABSOLUTELY!

lots of good fencers have....

THERE IS NO DOUBT

even people who don't like screaming, don't think it's appropriate, should be able to if they need to--

YOU ARE AMAZING


if you have a bad director who's easily swayed by screaming, and your opponent screams at every 2 light, and starts getting touches that are yours, shouldn't you be able to yell convincingly, the same way you should be able to adapt to other bad calls your director makes, by attacking a different way, etc.....

I HAVE NEVER MET A DIRECTOR I DIDN'T LOVE


sure, it's nice when really good fencers, who are clearly better than their oponent dont' gloat. if someone yelled when fencing me, it wouldn't be approriate. but it's completely appropriate when the two fencers are similar in skill, and either might win. it's even more appropriate if both fencers know each other, and are comfortable with agressive competition, including yelling, with each other...

GRRRR


if excessively done, it is silly and immature.
YES!

when properly done, it makes the day more fun.
I CAN'T BELIEVE IT

i'm from a division that often sees people stay to see the gold medal bouts.... other people were complaining... maybe there's some connection?

I HAVE TO REST NOW.
WHEW
whew

addendum:
gasp
your post was the best, let's give gold medal to Rhode Island!