Loud People on the Piste

[Catal]

yeah, I think I'd bet on me in that case.
Don't know how reasonable that is, though, as he won't give the slightest bit of info about his background.


Ugh... How base. You haven't the slightest thread of intellect upon which to support your arguments, so you resort to physical tactics. I think it's clear just what kind of mind you have now. It's people like you that caused me to quit being involved with fencing on an administrative level. You think with your ego, and don't recognize the evidence that's right in front of you.

It's very simple: USFencing has been using the same ideas for more than a decade and THEY DON'T WORK. If your way of doing things worked, we'd have fencing events scheduled on ESPN right now. We'd have more than 16,000 members after 107 years. There is no debate, there is no discussion. USFencing needs to change, or it will never be on television.

[Catal]

[quote]Originally posted by corinna2u
Okay, I can see that as possible...

I would still have to say it is possible that Catal is one of MP (MultiplePersonalities).


Excuse me? Craig can track my IP and know I am NOT one of these trolls. I've been cussed at by two of you people, so don't even begin to compare me to a troll. You can just leave this debate, because you've nothing substantial to contribute. Go look for trolls somewhere else because we've more constructive things to do here.

[pkt]

Originally posted by edew
PKT, What I got from Peter G is what you see, the only editing I did was to compile same weapon bouts into their own tapes.

As for screaming, is Sabresque reading this thread? Perhaps she can add her $0.02 about this. IN ALL CAPS, OF COURSE.

Eric,

That's what I thought.

You're very funny about the 'IN ALL CAPS, OF COURSE'. bit.

PK

[oiuyt]

It would be nice to see them take a smaller contract for the popular championships on the condition that a 1 hour edit of the fencing championships (and other less well known sports) be created and broadcast as well.

If you're asking that ESPN take an hour of it's time to broadcast fencing, then yes, you are suggesting that ESPN do something less profitable.

Uhm.... hence the smaller contract. ESPN makes the same amount of money, the NCAA makes less money. It's a trade-off, the amount that ESPN would make from some crap time rebroadcast of Baseball Tonight is removed from the amount that they pay (therefor net impact to ESPN $0). The NCAA makes a bit less, which means it distributes a bit less to member schools, but in turn gets some coverage for the currently untelevised teams from those member schools. Seems to me like a reasonable argument to make.

K, the current methods haven't worked. What methods do YOU suggest for getting fencing televised?

define "'A' level events."

Events only for A rated fencers.

How many parts of the country can do this? I'm in the largest (by number of members) division in the country. We now have 3 sabre A's (2 male, 1 female), 4 foil A's (3 male, 1 female), and probably about 7 epee A's. Yeah, 'cause THAT would make for a good day of fencing (not saying that I wouldn't enjoy participating in such a day, but it doesn't offer all that much quantity of fencing).

NYC can do the Liberty Cups and have the later rounds be A/B restricted. Can ANYWHERE else in the country get a reasonable sized competition with just A's?

I question section chair's seriousness because he can't do anything to get fencing on the big television sports map. If you'd said that he's too busy, he's passed that responsibility to someone else, I'd have left it alone. If you have no results to show, you can't say you're serious about fencing, and getting it on television.

So, combined with the fact that fencing isn't televised, this statement means that no one in the US is serious about fencing? Mmmm, okay, there went some more shreds of credibility.

I've come up quite a bit in this thread, I figured it was time that I actually post. I think that I'm fairly serious about fencing. Between coaching, competing, administrative duties for my team, my personal training, and other fencing related activities I spend a minimum of 20 and not infrequently in excess of 40 hours/week in fencing related activities. I'm actively involved in fencing as an athlete, a coach, a referee, and administratively on the club, local, and sectional level. This is likely to expand to the national level with this coming season. No I have not managed to get fencing onto ESPN. This does not mean that I don't take fencing seriously.

Are you involved in any leadership roles in your club, division?

I had been for a while. I quit when it became obvious that everyone got lazy after the first year of success. I managed to raise club tuition by 300% in the first year because I took the time to make a portfolio outlining our club's socio-economic impact on the surrounding area. Has it occured to any of you to make an appeal to your city congress for funds, or are you people still holding bake sales?

Oh, okay, now I see. During that time when you were in a leadership role and tripled your club's membership fees fencing was on television. Since then of course we haven't been televised because we're too lazy. I get it now.

Bakesales, homemade novelty soaps, magazine sales, requests from companies, from the school, from family members, running tournaments, whatever it takes, we've tried doing it. How is this relevant? BTW, do you have a copy of the portfolio mentioned? It might help other clubs looking to raise funds to see what worked in your area. I, for one, would love to have a copy. I'm always looking out for things that will help fencing in general or my club in specific.

-B :)
p.s. Despite the (at times) somewhat sarcastic tone of some of the above, I am genuinely interested in seeing whatever you have that helped you raise funds for your club. Please feel free to pm or email (both available through my profile) me more details.

[pkt]

Originally posted by MyrddinsPrecint
when you get a really really really nice touch, have you ever felt excited? known you'd done a really great job? wanted everyone to know? especially the director, who is influenced at least a little by the screams....

lots of good fencers have....

even people who don't like screaming, don't think it's appropriate, should be able to if they need to--

if you have a bad director who's easily swayed by screaming, and your opponent screams at every 2 light, and starts getting touches that are yours, shouldn't you be able to yell convincingly, the same way you should be able to adapt to other bad calls your director makes, by attacking a different way, etc.....

sure, it's nice when really good fencers, who are clearly better than their oponent dont' gloat. if someone yelled when fencing me, it wouldn't be approriate. but it's completely appropriate when the two fencers are similar in skill, and either might win. it's even more appropriate if both fencers know each other, and are comfortable with agressive competition, including yelling, with each other...

if excessively done, it is silly and immature.


when properly done, it makes the day more fun.

i'm from a division that often sees people stay to see the gold medal bouts.... other people were complaining... maybe there's some connection?

This must be a HOT topic judging by the number of responses...

I guess te emphasis is on 'WHEN' I make a real, realy, realy nice touch, that's to be expected. No need to be self-congratulatory or blow one's own horn. In that I guess I'm reserved.

Look at the final bout in the 2002 WC Women's sabre and compare that with the Men's sabre final bout. Can you tell me the screaming and theatrics in the former is ridiculous r not?

In a utopian world, the ref should not be swayed by the screaming or theatrics. Of course this assumes the ref is worth his salt.

We should all aim for the highest standard, not the lowest common denominator.

PK

[edew]

Speaking about A-rated events, the Pacific Coast Section can easily run a 20+ entry in men's epee with A's only. Other than that, I don't think it can do the same in foil or sabre, in either (or combined) gender.

[Catal]

K, the current methods haven't worked. What methods do YOU suggest for getting fencing televised?

I've already listed a few, if you're serious I will PM you.


How many parts of the country can do this?

I should have expanded on the comment. The US hosts a number of international events. I've seen members who aren't A-rated fencers try to compete at these events, and undoubtably it's nice for the hometeam, but doesn't do much to convey the idea of a strong American fencing program. A key initiative would be to air one of these hosted events, allowing only A-rated fencers to compete. Amateur events don't air well on television, they simply don't look good. However, top level events can captivate an audience. That would be the selling point to ESPN, who after the Titan games, clearly isn't convinced that fencing has any marketability. At the Titan games, of those broadcast, all were the top people in their field- all the top, strong, muscular people. The American public would rather watch, strong, fit, and elite fencers compete on television; not old, fat, sloppy average amateur fencers.


[b]So, combined with the fact that fencing isn't televised, this statement means that no one in the US is serious about fencing? Mmmm, okay, there went some more shreds of credibility.[/B[

You're spinning words, and you were doing so well.


This does not mean that I don't take fencing seriously.

Good for you.


Oh, okay, now I see. During that time when you were in a leadership role and tripled your club's membership fees fencing was on television. Since then of course we haven't been televised because we're too lazy. I get it now.

Now you're trying to be difficult. You really are like MP.


Bakesales, homemade novelty soaps, magazine sales, requests from companies, from the school, from family members, running tournaments, whatever it takes, we've tried doing it.

Did you go to the city mayor? Did you sell your points to him? Do you try to become part of the public agenda? No, you don't. You're doing nothing a 1st grade class hasn't already done, and that's pathetic.


Despite the (at times) somewhat sarcastic tone of some of the above, I am genuinely interested in seeing whatever you have that helped you raise funds for your club. Please feel free to pm or email (both available through my profile) me more details.

What the...? Alright... We can discuss this.

[pkt]

Originally posted by PeterGustafsson
Hi!

First of all, I personally think that vocalization on the piste should be curtailed more than it is now. I have been guilty of doing it, but I don´t do it every bout, or even close to that.

A sport does not have to be full of emotional displays in order to get TV prime time. Previously listed examples are golf and curling.

Eurosport airs 40+ hours of sumo each year, much more than its fencing coverage. They also cover a substantial amount of biathlon and curling, two other subdued sports. Each gets more air time than fencing.

Personally, I like that kind of stuff - nothing is more exciting for me to watch than two competitors duking it out, while showing a stony silence. The winner wins with a fantastic action, and underscores it with more of the same so the viewer can savour the action itself, and not be distracted by emotional displays. This probably has something to do with the fact that I don´t like emotional displays in real life either. MS was after ME in the recent Sw. Championships, and knowing what they would sound like was a major reason for me to split (along with having errands to do).

Catal - since you obviously feel so strong about this issue, why not invest some time in a sabre referee course? Do it well, and eventually you will get the opportunity to tell whtouche to be silent, or risk a card. Just imagine the feeling!

Whtouche - your comparison of Catal to the multiple personality is simply off.
Catal: Has a clear agenda
MP: Agenda is often indiscernible
Catal: Sticks to the topic
MP: Spins out to la-la-land immediately
Catal: Comes of as abrasive
MP: Often does not show any feelings whatsoever
Catal: Splits posts into paragraphs
MP: Usually writes run-on posts
So, where are the similarities?

To me, it seems as if this opinions here split along the weapons. An epeeist is against screaming, while several sabre fencers are vociferously for it, or at least accept it. This matches my experience of how fencers are in reality, see thead about different weapon personalities.

Wflascka writes:
Someone asked is screaming a part of sport fencing? Sure. Proof:
Step 1: Go to tournament, witness screaming.
Step 2: Done.


This attempt at proof is such that I wonder if you are being flippant, or just don´t care to put together a formal proof. Counterexample: hits with the sabre button happen from time to time, but that does not make them part of fencing. Same for other rules infractions.

Whtouche writes:
Note the sound of your arguement falling apart. How many hollywood sword fights do you watch that are all quiet and proper? I can't even explain to you why your arguement doesn't make sense it's so wrong. I'm just glad everyone else sees it and hopefully one day you'll wake up.


Whatever the merits of the case, this must rank as one of the weakest attempts at argument I have ever seen. Arguing with: "I can´t even explain" - sheesh!!!

When writing a post, please try to make the text as logically sound as a math proof. If it is significantly weaker than that, it becomes a pain to read.

pkt writes:
Imagine an instrumental musician who NEEDs to scream and jump about on stage to make his/her performance rather than let his / her instrument do all the performing...

Your choice.


Well, pkt, you and I are both over 30, but many posters here are significantly younger than that. Look at the music popular with the teenagers - those antics are a hit. So is the TV show "Jackass". Sad but true.

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

Peter,

Great argument re Sumo vs fencing and getting air time on TV. It's sad when Eurosport airs more sumo than fencing when the latter is part of European culture/civilisation.

Perhaps it has something to do with the tournament organisers providing TV coverage.

Look at the boxers during a boxing match, another combat sport. Do they scream or holler? NO.

My point is that a yell as in an afterburner effect is, I think, very acceptable. It is part of the physical exertion. I think the more appropriate comparison is fencing and kendo. In kendo there is a lot of creaming as a result of the physical exertion and the need to 'call the shot'; but there is NO theatrics, celebratory or otherwise. Given the reserved nature of the Japanese people this is very much in line with their culture, with their upbringing. (Try living in houses wih literaly paper-thin walls and you'll appreciate the restraint in vocalisation everyone exercises.

Peter, I wrote that line after rethinking about it. Hence the final version was 'instrumental musician' rather than simply musician.

That said, now more and more female classical musicians are wearing less and less when they perform... But they still let their music do the talking. They still do not need to jump up and down...

Peter, age has nothing to do with it. Maturity has. The lack of a need to prance and attract attention to be self-fulfilling are two more examples.

Not all sabreur, male or female are as demonstrative as what's her name who came 2nd in the women sabre final in the 2002 WC in Lisbon.

BTW, did Eurosport showed only the final men's sabre match from Lisbon? If that's the case, it's a pity. At least I gained something from watcing that tape.

Thank you,

PK

[pkt]

epeemike,

"...the problem is that to get coverage, fencing needs to get to a level where a significant amount of the population is used to watching it, which we can't do without television coverage. A real catch 22. to me, the solution is to do what the lumberjack games did, and pay ESPN to cover it. pay for it to be on for a few years, and then you can start getting paid once you have built a fan base."

Look at the current state of affairs in CART (Champ Cars) and you'll see how wrong your postualtion is.

They went from a serious TV air time user to having to buy air time from ESPN...

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by veeco
If you ever watch curling, you'll see that the competitors scream all the way through it.

Also, one more thing that makes curling more televised is that this is a team event. It's much easier to cheer for, say Japan even if it's not your own country because you feel more attached to them somehow than the other team than to cheer for one lone Japanese guy fencing another guy from another country.

Veeco,

Close but no cigar.
Curlers scream because they want the sweepers to do certain thing. They do not scream for screaming sakes like some demonstrative fencers. In other words, the screams are for communicating strategy. It's not theatrics.

Epeemike was right to point out the televisability of curling is not because it's a team event, it's because it is understandable, like baseball in spite of its complexity.

To add to this comprehensibility, curling competition organisers or the TV broadcasters have started to have the curlers wear wireless miles so the viewers can partake in the curlers' strategising.

the problem is that to get coverage, fencing needs to get to a level where a significant amount of the population is used to watching it, which we can't do without television coverage. A real catch 22. to me, the solution is to do what the lumberjack games did, and pay ESPN to cover it. pay for it to be on for a few years, and then you can start getting paid once you have built a fan base.

As a primer for those who don't know much about curling, rent the Cdn movie called "Men with Brooms". It's great fun aside from the romantic stuff.

What is the relationship between prize money and TV coverage? Is that a "chicken or egg" question"

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by veeco
If you ever watch curling, you'll see that the competitors scream all the way through it.

Also, one more thing that makes curling more televised is that this is a team event. It's much easier to cheer for, say Japan even if it's not your own country because you feel more attached to them somehow than the other team than to cheer for one lone Japanese guy fencing another guy from another country.

Veeco,

Close but no cigar.
Curlers scream because they want the sweepers to do certain thing. They do not scream for screaming sakes like some demonstrative fencers. In other words, the screams are for communicating strategy. It's not theatrics.

Epeemike was right to point out the televisability of curling is not because it's a team event, it's because it is understandable, like baseball in spite of its complexity.

To add to this comprehensibility, curling competition organisers or the TV broadcasters have started to have the curlers wear wireless miles so the viewers can partake in the curlers' strategising.

the problem is that to get coverage, fencing needs to get to a level where a significant amount of the population is used to watching it, which we can't do without television coverage. A real catch 22. to me, the solution is to do what the lumberjack games did, and pay ESPN to cover it. pay for it to be on for a few years, and then you can start getting paid once you have built a fan base.

As a primer for those who don't know much about curling, rent the Cdn movie called "Men with Brooms". It's great fun aside from the romantic stuff.

What is the relationship between prize money and TV coverage? Is that a "chicken or egg" question?

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by corinna2u
Curling:

Curling is a very popular sport in Canada. The kids learn to play it in school as part of their physical education. They also have kid teams, as well as, adult teams in many small towns; so understand that it is a sport played over much of Canada.

Due to its popularity in Canada, curling has been televised for a very long time... When the American broadcast sports channel was trying to reach more Canadian viewers, curling coverage was given a trial run. Much to their surprise, Americans in Florida sipping on lemonade enjoyed watching curling...(Yes, partly due to it being a team sport, partly due to it being easy to understand and watch, and partly due to it was new and different.)

Which school districts in Canada have curling on their school curriculum?

You know why people watch curling in Florida? It's not because of it being a team sport, etc., silly. It's because of all the 'snowbirds' from Quebec and Ontario... d'oh!

PK

[whtouche]

The reason I compared catal to jupiter wasn't a serious venturing that he may actually be another. Only that they seem to post the same way. Note: not the same style, just the things they post.

Catal posts things that are either intentionally inflamatory, or he needs to brush up on his social skills. Calling people 'pathetic' for not making it their mission in life to get fencing televised?
What gives you the right to preach to us? What have you done, or are currently doing? From what you said and what I can gather, nothing. You've given up and now you're being a hypocrite telling us we should do things that you aren't willing to do anymore.

[pkt]

Originally posted by corinna2u
PeterG, I must say I am also surprised by your post, and your condescending tone...

IYou write: Well, pkt, you and I are both over 30, but many posters here are significantly younger than that. Look at the music popular with the teenagers - those antics are a hit. So is the TV show "Jackass". Sad but true."

I believe pkt was referring to musicians that play their (usually non-electric) instrument and the beautiful notes float in the air...what my music teacher would have called a classical musician. And I agree with pkt, it would be very distracting if they did more than sway or tap their foot.

Again, I am surprised, but then maybe I have missed your other posts that are like this one...

Relax, corinna2u,

I agree w/ Peter on his post.
In the context of theuniverse, this forum doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

Read the posts and enjoy the banter.

PK

[Dragonfly]

Sticking my neck out again, on the 'combined gender'. There's something I wondered about that hasn't come up yet in our threads, and I'll just throw it out there on the board and see what happens. Men who want to fence against women as females. Before anyone goes crazy here, this is a fact of life. Christine Jorgenson as our classic example. I have known many transexuals in life but in competition it becomes another story altogether. One man was banned from competing against women in a well known water-sport, based on his genetic- dna reading. Any comments on this?


[putting on flame-proof jacket]

[Inquartata]

Wow.

I haven't read this entire lengthy thread---partly because I'm pressed for time these days, partly because the topic has been discussed to death before around here, and partly because many of the posts are none-too-civil personal exchanges into the middle of which I don't want to get.


But, a couple of points:

A) I've read a great deal about duels and so forth and have seen very little to confirm the reality of any sort of fusillades of insults during combats. FICTION is another matter, but "Scaramouche" and "Cyrano de Bergerac" do not prove that it was a practice which went on in the real world.

B) To insist that yelling is an integral part of modern fencing is to ignore those fencers---some of them very good---who do NOT yell. If it is possible to do well in silence, it follows that it is not necessary to yell in order to do so...hence yelling is a CHOICE, not a central part of the sport, just like your choice of grip.
( Though it seems to annoy more people than does choice of grip. )

[edew]

Actually, yelling is productive on a physiological level as the yell help release the tension that holds the person back from fully engaging in the activity.

That "yah!" helps make the attack land that much quicker, that much more accelerated at the end.

There is a definite benefit for the yell outside of any intimidation factor.

When I started fencing in the West Coast, I never saw the antics and the yelling that accompanied the sabre fencers like I saw when I went back East and saw the fencers from FC and AC do their stuff. Those yells are more for release than for intimidation, and it works.

[Inquartata]

Or perhaps it "works" because you believe it works...I've yet to see any study I'd call scientific demonstrating any documentable increase in performance from vocalization.

[edew]

The expulsion of air allows the chest area to push back as the arm pushes forward. For example, one should exhale when exerting force during weight training. Holding the air in is not conducive (and could be physiologically detrimental) to the action.

Allowing the chest cavity to shrink by releasing the air allows the stomach muscles and other muscles to contract without unnecessary resistance. Some people can certainly do that without yelling and screaming. But some people aren't taught to exhale, so they forget to do so. The yelling is to induce the exhaling.