Loud People on the Piste

[Catal]

Seems to me the only person not making any sense is catal.

Well, I understand if you can't keep up with the pace of things. Just don't complain needlessly when you fall behind.


You are doing a lot of complaining, I'm curious what are you doing about it?

Nothing, I'm surrounded by people who want to tell the NCAA they should put money into an event that gets 25 people who watch the final event of a fencing bout. What am I supposed to do, eh? Should I argue with people in person, when hardly anyone agrees with my ideas? Seems to me that everyone who is doings things, has been doing them they same way for a long time and getting no results. If you people can't understand that, then we all have to deal with it. But, this is my way of telling those people they're wrong.


Are you involved in any leadership roles in your club, division?

I had been for a while. I quit when it became obvious that everyone got lazy after the first year of success. I managed to raise club tuition by 300% in the first year because I took the time to make a portfolio outlining our club's socio-economic impact on the surrounding area. Has it occured to any of you to make an appeal to your city congress for funds, or are you people still holding bake sales?


Saying that a D or E classified fencer has a better grip on fencing than a A classified fencer is ridiculous.

I was clearly refering to a non-physical performance issue.


I am also curious on what your credential are.

I'd rather not have to meet you people in person. The last thing I need is to hear about how great your teams are because a couple dozen people outside your college know who you are. Blah.

[corinna2u]

Curling:

Curling is a very popular sport in Canada. The kids learn to play it in school as part of their physical education. They also have kid teams, as well as, adult teams in many small towns; so understand that it is a sport played over much of Canada.

Due to its popularity in Canada, curling has been televised for a very long time... When the American broadcast sports channel was trying to reach more Canadian viewers, curling coverage was given a trial run. Much to their surprise, Americans in Florida sipping on lemonade enjoyed watching curling...(Yes, partly due to it being a team sport, partly due to it being easy to understand and watch, and partly due to it was new and different.)

[Dragonfly]

Some verrrrrry interesting points mentioned here. Peter, I'm surprised at your response, but we're getting to know you a bit better! [what say folks?] the man is ICE, a block of ICE, maths in a screaming paragraph. Well, okay, I see where you're coming from [brrrrr]; Veeco' s interesting story about Japan helps. For a stoic group of people, that is for a people with a reputation of not showing very much emotion, and btw, did anyone know that's the reason why the women wear such heavy white makeup for weddings, to mask their emotions [just threw that in], they scream pretty good. But screaming ALONG with a screamer on the piste is just no good. It breaks the concentration. It's part of the fencing ethos, one screams, the other is silent, then you scream the other is silent. Then it becomes ridiculose unless both of you realize it's really just a game and a lot of people are laughing. Then it's traaa-laaa-laaaa-haahaa. But for me, I prefer the deep concentration with no screaming. I blame John McInroe for the increase of screaming in sports.

et la. Fencing tonight.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Catal
Well, let's take the simpliest of the three styles. Epee is as easy as hit the other guy, don't go out of bounds, and the lights tell you who got the point. That's all the observer needs to know. I've never seen a newbie who failed to understand epee after a few minutes. An understanding of the remaining rules is made after the intitial interest, the same as with any sport.

Compare epee rules to boxing rules. Do you understand the 10-point must rule, or why after 300 punches thrown and 150 landed, a boxer only receives 9 or 10 points? How many people actually see the 150 punches landed, and how do they count as points? It doesn't matter. All one needs to know is hit the other guy, don't go out of bounds and the bell ends the round.

but those "rules they'll pick up afterwards" frequently result in no touch without them knowing why. Even epee isn't as easy to understand on a general "who scored?" level as boxing.

Complexity of rules isn't the problem, conduct on the piste alone isn't the problem. The problem is social/cultural/behavioral:

well, I'll agree that no one thing is the ENTIRE problem, but I disagree for the above stated reasons about whether strip conduct IS a problem. Remember that this was a penalty for EXCESSIVE grunting/screaming. Tennis DOES have a reputation. when I mentioned the thought that fencing wasn't popular because of screaming to my father, his immediate reaction was "well, I guess Tennis isn't popular either."

4. Put a greater emphasis on bringing in observers to see the "A" level events, not general opens. Let the new observer see top level fencing to get interested, it'll put more punch on the "awe" factor. The greatest compliment an observer can give you is when you make a blindingly fast action, and they say "holy ****." I've gotten more people interested in fencing that way, than with any paper advertisement. A lot of new fencing clubs make the mistake of giving lackluster demonstrations to a bored crowd. Hollywood makes fencing look good on TV, it's time fencing started making fencing look good.

define "'A' level events." If we are talking ratings, then our general opens ARE A level events. Every epee open in NE Div this year was an A2. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that next year every epee open AND every sabre open will be A2 events.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Catal
My credentials aren't in question. I'm not the one saying, how good I am. I'm the one pointing out that all of you think your credentials make you so great, yet not a single one of you can give a good answer as to why your efforts to make fencing more well known have amounted to nothing.

She (MP) never said she was "good". she said she was "serious about fencing," in response to your saying she couldn't be. being capt., even with no other credentials, shows a level of commitment to fencing.

Great, so he's a good fencer. Has that helped put USFencing on television? No.

and that has what to do with anything?

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Catal
You actually want to tell the NCAA that they should give up a SIX BILLION dollar a year industry so that a few unpopular sports can have a little more attention? That is absolutely, the most inane thing you could possibly tell the NCAA. That's your sales pitch? "It's not fair. We want attention, give us money."

do I WANT them to? absolutely. Do I think they SHOULD? Absolutely. remember, the NCAA is NOT a for-profit business, at least not theoretically. they are supposed to be there to promote and administer ALL collegiate athletics. do I think they will? As previously mentioned, of course not!

you seem to have missed the part in the last post when i said that it wasn't going to happen.

No. No they can't spare 1 hour because 1 hour could mean the difference between $1,000,000 and $150,000. ESPN is too busy trying to run a business to listen to your complaints.

actually, if you would read more carefully, you will see that I'm suggesting the NCAA take LESS money from ESPN in return for coverage of less well known sports. I'm NOT suggesting ESPN should do ANYTHING less profitable, just that the NCAA should.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Catal
Actually, that's not how I was using it, and it's very sneaky of you to try and spin my comment. MP said he was captain, and that he was captain because he was serious. I questioned his credentials.

first of all, I'll AGAIN point out that MP is a SHE. secondly, if this was your intent, then to ask for credentials in the first place was a red herring, since she was using her being captain as proof of seriousness, which is entirely a quality of attitude, not credentials. Last, but not least, why bother asking for credentials for ANY reason if you feel they are meaningless???

MP goes on later to say that because his section chair makes noises, that insults on the piste can't be all that bad. I said, I don't care.

Then, I flippantly said if the section chair was anything like MP, then I didn't think he took fencing seriously.

well, I think you can evaluate that one on its own. oiuyt certainly posts here enough for you to get a sense.

Later, you tell me said chair's ratings and I flippantly respond, again. We're talking about two different people.

which two? mp and oiuyt?? what about them?

I question MP's captainship because he supplied no credentials.

you questioned the meaning of captaincy, not the fact. again, I submit that regardless of skill level, being captain shows a commitment to ("seriousness") the sport of fencing.

I question section chair's seriousness because he can't do anything to get fencing on the big television sports map.

wow. I didn't realize that fell into the purvue of section chair.

If you'd said that he's too busy, he's passed that responsibility to someone else, I'd have left it alone. If you have no results to show, you can't say you're serious about fencing, and getting it on television.

first of all, his name NEVER came up in regards to the television issue, nor should it have. you seem to be making leaps that aren't evident....

Also, I just noticed you'd mentioned that a grand 20 - 30 people watched the finals at your NAC's... Um... yeah... great. An average of 25 fans watching the last bout of an event, uh, that's impressive.

no, you mentioned a couple dozen at NACs. I mentioned 20-30 at LOCAL opens in NE Div.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Catal
I'd rather not have to meet you people in person. The last thing I need is to hear about how great your teams are because a couple dozen people outside your college know who you are. Blah.

hey, I'm not looking for a name.

how about some general information?

ratings?

do you coach? What kind of program (varsity college, club college, HS, USFA club, etc.)

ratings of your students?

you know, general credentials!

maybe a general location, like what section and/or division you're in, etc.

-m

[corinna2u]

PeterG, I must say I am also surprised by your post, and your condescending tone...

I have no problem with your examples of curling, biathalon, sumo...I must say though, I feel the reason people enjoy the stoic faces of sumo wrestlers is because they know they are in pain and not showing it.

I appreciate your pointing out to Catal that by becoming a referee (getting involved) she could make a difference.

But then I do have a problem with your post:

"Whtouche - your comparison of Catal to the multiple personality is simply off.
Catal: Has a clear agenda
MP: Agenda is often indiscernible
Catal: Sticks to the topic
MP: Spins out to la-la-land immediately
Catal: Comes of as abrasive
MP: Often does not show any feelings whatsoever
Catal: Splits posts into paragraphs
MP: Usually writes run-on posts
So, where are the similarities?"

I believe whtouche was wondering if Catal is another personality of Jupiter, not a personality of MP. It would not surprise me from the way Catal writes.

"Wflascka writes: Someone asked is screaming a part of sport fencing? Sure. Proof:
Step 1: Go to tournament, witness screaming.
Step 2: Done.

You write: This attempt at proof is such that I wonder if you are being flippant, or just don´t care to put together a formal proof. Counterexample: hits with the sabre button happen from time to time, but that does not make them part of fencing. Same for other rules infractions."

Since when are formal proofs a requirement? He is just saying that screaming is not an offense and hasn't been for awhile; therefore it has become part of the sport of fencing. Math proof not needed.

"Whtouche writes: Note the sound of your arguement falling apart. How many hollywood sword fights do you watch that are all quiet and proper? I can't even explain to you why your arguement doesn't make sense it's so wrong. I'm just glad everyone else sees it and hopefully one day you'll wake up.

You write: Whatever the merits of the case, this must rank as one of the weakest attempts at argument I have ever seen. Arguing with: "I can´t even explain" - sheesh!!!

When writing a post, please try to make the text as logically sound as a math proof. If it is significantly weaker than that, it becomes a pain to read."

How pompous! Again this isn't math and doesn't require proofs to that level...if it is such a pain for you, read your math text. I have seen EpeeMike81 post something like - if you don't get it, I am not going to explain it to you. And you don't nail him to the wall. That is pretty much what Whtouche is saying just in his own words...

"pkt writes: Imagine an instrumental musician who NEEDs to scream and jump about on stage to make his/her performance rather than let his / her instrument do all the performing... Your choice.

You write: Well, pkt, you and I are both over 30, but many posters here are significantly younger than that. Look at the music popular with the teenagers - those antics are a hit. So is the TV show "Jackass". Sad but true."

I believe pkt was referring to musicians that play their (usually non-electric) instrument and the beautiful notes float in the air...what my music teacher would have called a classical musician. And I agree with pkt, it would be very distracting if they did more than sway or tap their foot.

Again, I am surprised, but then maybe I have missed your other posts that are like this one...

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Marcos
epeemike

would it be easier if you and Catal just met up at your club and sorted this out !

first to 10 in each weapon

yeah, I think I'd bet on me in that case.

Don't know how reasonable that is, though, as he won't give the slightest bit of info about his background.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by corinna2u
I believe whtouche was wondering if Catal is another personality of Jupiter, not a personality of MP. It would not surprise me from the way Catal writes.

This confused me initially, too, but I believe Peter was using MP as an abbreviation of Multiple Personality. Peter: I would suggest you not do that anymore, as it gets very confusing, especially in a thread where Myrddin'sPrecint has been so active.

-m

[mtarascio]

Based on profile catal is a C02 Epee fencer with 5 years experience. How about a 15 touch bout at the Nationals. I don't know epeemike but my money is on him.

[corinna2u]

Okay, I can see that as possible...

I would still have to say it is possible that Catal is one of MP (MultiplePersonalities).

Miss MultiplePersonalities can be very straightforward in some of her posts...but the likeness comes with the pouting and taking offense...dishing out without supporting...

For example: The "give me your credentials", but don't ask me for mine because they are not relevant.

Another example: The "what are you doing", but don't point out that I am not doing anything.

Another example: The "your credentials don't mean anything because you haven't made changes", but I won't give you my credentials although I did just admit I am not doing anything.

[bug]

A little yelling during/after a good touch is ok. Screaming like a banshee at every little thing is annoying and disrespectful. Solution for the screamers? Point and laugh at their idiocy. If they have any shame, they'll shut up soon enough.

[achilleus]

I don't know who said it first, or how the digression started, but a lot of examples have been mentioned about screaming in other sports. Baseball, basketball, tennis, and sumo wrestling have all been mentioned

I think all those examples prove that screaming or not screaming has no effect on fencing being on TV.

Now, as for curling, this issue came up a while back. Sam SIgnorelli wrote them about their success on getting television time. The response made it very clear that money was a very important issue in getting the television coverage. That thread also reminded us that although curling is very small in the US, it has a strong worldwide following.

So you can be shocked about curling getting on TV, but rather than being shocked and upset by it, or you can look at it as hopeful for our sport.

[jeff]

Originally posted by bug
A little yelling during/after a good touch is ok. Screaming like a banshee at every little thing is annoying and disrespectful. Solution for the screamers? Point and laugh at their idiocy. If they have any shame, they'll shut up soon enough.

Now, Bug, don't go off and try to ruin the whole thing by using common sense...

[Catal]

Tennis DOES have a reputation. when I mentioned the thought that fencing wasn't popular because of screaming, his immediate reaction was "well, I guess Tennis isn't popular either."

What are you talking about? Dude, everyone can go back to the beginning the posts and see that I never said that. Will you please leave this debate if you're going to make up comments? Or, at least try to lie well.


define "'A' level events."

Events only for A rated fencers.

[Catal]

[quote]Originally posted by epeemike81
you seem to have missed the part in the last post when i said that it wasn't going to happen.

No, clearly I did not. That's why I said you "want to tell" them to change, not that you expected them to change.


actually, if you would read more carefully, you will see that I'm suggesting the NCAA take LESS money from ESPN in return for coverage of less well known sports.

That does not match what you said here: to me, the solution is to do what the lumberjack games did, and pay ESPN to cover it. pay for it to be on for a few years, and then you can start getting paid once you have built a fan base.

Another idea which I proposed to the board before is for the NCAA to reform itself and actually promote ALL the sports rather than being fully money driven. they aren't SUPPOSED to be profit driven. It would be nice to see them take a smaller contract for the popular championships on the condition that a 1 hour edit of the fencing championships (and other less well known sports) be created and broadcast as well. I do think ESPN/ESPN2 can spare 1 hour of their 18-24 hours of sportscenter a day! Do I think this is likely to happen?? almost certainly not. but I do think it should.


I'm NOT suggesting ESPN should do ANYTHING less profitable, just that the NCAA should.

If you're asking that ESPN take an hour of it's time to broadcast fencing, then yes, you are suggesting that ESPN do something less profitable.

[Catal]

no, you mentioned a couple dozen at NACs. I mentioned 20-30 at LOCAL opens in NE Div.

25avg at a local isn't great either. It's sad that your comment there is the only one with which you can contest with my own on any meaningful level. I have noticed that you're only focusing on contentious issues, and have dropped the debate concerning curling vs. fencing. Claiming that Curling has more money and sponsors than Fencing... yeah, great idea.

[Catal]

[quote]Originally posted by epeemike81
hey, I'm not looking for a name. how about some general information?

I already gave you general information. And, you're not getting anymore.