Loud People on the Piste

[a517dogg]

and are you insinuating that i don't take this sport seriously?

No, I'm telling you that you don't take this sport seriously. Anyone who takes this sport seriously would have known after three years of saber that fencing never started with the "nobleman." It started with the Egyptians, the Romans, the Byzantines...


i'm captain of my team next year.

Anyone who has been on a college team knows how to get these things. "Hey, you wanna captain next year?" "Nah, I've got too many classes. You?" "Yeah, sure I'll captain." Big deal, you title means nothing to me. Show some credentials, then we'll say, "Oh, how nice."


i take the sport seriously.

Uh, huh. Obviously, not seriously enough to know that the roots of fencing are not European in nature. You keep making these banal references to nobleman... Hey, captain... get a clue... 1190BC Luxor, Egypt... that's where fencing started.


in fact, if i'm not mistaken (and i'm not, i triple checked myself)-i know a SECTION CHAIR who happens to make noise occationally.

Are we supposed to be impressed that your section chair occassionally makes noises? From where do these noises come, I ask? And, do I care? Again, the answer is no. I know lots of Sections Chairs and Fencing Congress reps who don't make noise... again, you and your one esteemed Section Chair mean nothing.

are you going to accuse a section chair of being immature, or someone who doesn't take the sport seriously?

Well, if he's anything like you... yes, I would accuse him of not taking the sport seriously.






Catal: I take this sport very seriously and i've fenced for five or six years and i did not know that fencing started in egypt in 1146245 bc. nor do i care. what difference does that make on modern sport fencing? ABSOLUTELY NONE. so why should anyone other than history buffs care? you tell me. show me an ancient egyptian move or something.

and if you want to get picky, it probably started with two cavemen beating eachother with sticks.

Also, with your reference to college team captains... at least on my team, being a captain IS a big deal, leading practices, coming to school before classes start, meetings every week, role model, etc etc.

I also scream when i fence competitively. i do not make a conscious decision, it just happens when i am becoming more motivated to win. i have even gotten carded for it. thus, the USFA DOES penalize people for acting like brats on the strip.

fourthly, fencing is televised in europe, its just not televised in the US for the simple reason that not enough people fence. golf is boring as hell, but since everyone plays it it gets airtime and its own tv channel. same with fishing, etc. it has nothing to do with people not wanting to see fencers scream on the strip.

lastly, on this thread at least, you're coming off as an *******. be nice please.

and if you want my "credentials" i am an A03 in epee.

[afc fencer]

Good for you. Since you haven't noticed, television sports have a thing called public image. Public image helps keep a sport popular. Fencing has no public image, but everyone has an opinion of it... that opinion being, as Peter Westbrook (and many others) has stated, is that if you're a fencer, you're probably not straight. Either that, or you're into D&D. Or, you're a rich fop. Movie swashbucklers are cool, sport fencers are not. Why? Because Hollywood knows how to make a public image, and make it stick. USFA has no agenda, and so we get pushed around at events like the Titan Games, which we were all assured what showcase fencing. Yeah, that turned out grand.

By not screaming i think it would make the publics image of the D&D or or being a rich snob stick.

Look at all the sports have tons of fans and plenty of TV time.
Baseball-fights between teams break out a few times a year. Players and mangers are thrown out all the time for saying something not so polite to the ump.
Football- when someone gts a touchdown they do a little victory dance.
Hockey- fights break out all the time
Soccer- when a team wins they all crazy and rip of there shirts.
Basketball- dirty looks are exchanged all the time.

All of these actions show emotion, fans love them.

I read in the fie mag that the fie hired some guy from nbc to help fencing be more spectator friendly. He said that the viewer needed to see more emotions from the fencers. He suggested that fencers be able to take there mask off more and that we use the mask with the plastic face plate thing. I think screams are another great way to show emotion.

If fencing wants to be a more spectator friendly sport than yells should stay.

[Catal]

what difference does that make on modern sport fencing?

I'll explain in simple terms. MP's argument was that the "roots" of fencing were with the swordplay of noblemen. Thus, he continued, the insults of now are based on what was a European tradition. Since the reality is that the roots of fencing are, in fact, Egyptian, it's easy to see why MP's analysis is wrong. MP was making the comparison, not I. Your question should be directed at him.


so why should anyone other than history buffs care? you tell me. show me an ancient egyptian move or something.

Why should anyone care? Because anyone who is serious about thing, tries to understand said thing. It stands to reason, if you don't know where fencing came from, and why it exists today as it does, you're probably not as serious about it as you'd like to believe. You remind me of the people who don't even know why fencing is called "Fencing." Get a book, and get educated if you're so serious. Don't come to this board talking about how, "I'm so serious about fencing," and you don't even know from where fencing originated.


I also scream when i fence competitively. i do not make a conscious decision, it just happens when i am becoming more motivated to win. i have even gotten carded for it. thus, the USFA DOES penalize people for acting like brats on the strip.

That's in your area, and against you. I've been all over this country and seen this kind of behaviour be tolerated. At a regular open, okay, but a NAC...? It's unacceptable that USFencing can't control the conduct of its fencers.


fourthly, fencing is televised in europe, its just not televised in the US for the simple reason that not enough people fence.

Y'know, everyone uses that "not enough people fence" excuse, and it's just a bunch of bull. The US Curling association has 15,000 members, and they get a hell of a lot more air time than us. Again, I can't stress enough the point of educated argumentation.


lastly, on this thread at least, you're coming off as an *******. be nice please.

Better an educated ******* than a non-educated pleb. Be schooled.


and if you want my "credentials" i am an A03 in epee.

Why do you people place so much importance on ratings? I've known lowly D's and E's with a far better grip of the fencing situation than yourself, and they contribute a great deal to fencing in the area. Your A means nothing, it's just a letter.

[whtouche]

Catal, it's gonna take alot of effort for me to be civil to you so bear with me.
You're an idiot.

Im sorry that just slipped out..
Anyways. There are so many things wrong with your arguement. Let us begin:
Fencing isnt televised because people scream, right? It...doesnt have anything to do that very few people, comparatively, fence, and understand the rules right? And being 'gentlemanely' and not making a peep and just playing with your blades will give fencing some sort of image OTHER than the stereotypes that you stated?

I don't think you take reality very seriously.

How prim and proper would you say professional basketball games are? Hockey? Football?? If everyone just went out there did their business and played the game quietly, you think that would increase its value to the public? Im going to answer for you because it seems to me you wouldnt be able to arrive at the logical conclusion on your own: NO. How many people do you find that watch games because they're exciting, not because they know all the rules(who does) and get excited when something happens, but instead are energized by the energy of the players?

This post is going to come out disorganized because Im responding to a person making points that make sense. Again bear with me:

QUOTE: "Movie swashbucklers are cool, sport fencers are not. Why? Because Hollywood knows how to make a public image, and make it stick."

Note the sound of your arguement falling apart. How many hollywood sword fights do you watch that are all quiet and proper? I can't even explain to you why your arguement doesn't make sense it's so wrong. I'm just glad everyone else sees it and hopefully one day you'll wake up.

Saying that yelling is bad is like saying parrying is bad. It's a part of the game. I like wflaschka's idea on how to prove that it's part of the game: You've witnessed it. Whining about it isn't going to get anything done, and you know what? You're perpetuating it. You are one of the reasons people yell. People either yell as a reaction or release of energy, or they do it as a form of psychological warfare. And it seems to be working on you. Deal with it.

Before I fenced I threw shotput. I was taught after you throw to yell as a release of energy. I found it helps me focus and keeps me relax. I carried this over into fencing. Now, nobody is claiming that excessive yelling is a good thing, and people have been carded for it. Perhaps you just need a higher tolerance of what you consider excessive.
Consider Prise De Fer, a fencing club in the new england division. They produce some really good fencers, at least locally, some nationally (daria schneider, jeff spear, Ian McEakhern) and nearly all fencers from PdF have the same characteristic yell. A long, sometimes excessive yell/shriek/scream/grunt of celebration. Their coaches Im told encourage this kind of behavior, and you know why?
To quote someone who may be reading this: Prise De Fer fencers are ALWAYS ON. They rarely if ever have bad fencing days and that is because thru the use of their vocal cords they keep themselves focused and get themselves pumped it.

Im going to stop now. If you dont understand yet you wont and it's not worth trying to make you. It's part of the game, and you should get used to it. Or not, shrug. But the only one it's hurting is you.

As for doubting that MyrddinsPrecint is a dedicated fencer because she doesn't know some obscure fact about sport fencing originating in egypt, which you probably heard one time thought it sounded cool and decided to parrot...my god there you go again not making sense.
I know her. She is dedicated. She's not the best fencer. But she is dedicated. Im trying to figure out if you're being a troll or if you actually think this way. If not for your adherence to one topic I might say you bear a striking resemblance to a certain planet/string of numbers/fruit I've seen post before...

[Catal]

If fencing wants to be a more spectator friendly sport than yells should stay.

I see what you're saying. But, keep in mind those same players get fined for their actions should they go too far. There's shouting, but the NBA, etc, tells it's players to keep it under control. All major sports teams have PR reps that advise the players how to conduct themselves. If you break the rules, you get fined and even let go because the sport and the team are what's most important.

[Prometheus]

I find that the amount of vocalization that is inoffensive is both context and intent dependent.

Like many other aspect of fencing (and life) how you conduct yourself on the strip is simply a matter of good taste.

There are penalties for being disruptive on or off the strip.

Beyond that, say or do whatever you like, but realize that you will be judged by your peers and teachers. Loudmouths and braggarts have a tendency to not be invited to dinner, and judging from some of the looks I have seen directors give howling fencers at national events, they are not impressed by even the most faithful imitation of an angry baboon.

[Catal]

You're an idiot.

Sure, that sounds like a valid argument.


Fencing isnt televised because people scream, right?

No, point is that it's not condusive.


It...doesnt have anything to do that very few people, comparatively, fence, and understand the rules right?

The same goes for curling, and, as we all know... Curling gets air coverage.


And being 'gentlemanely' and not making a peep and just playing with your blades will give fencing some sort of image OTHER than the stereotypes that you stated?

Rich snobs yell... Yeah... remember the point about rich snobs I made? There it is again, please read before responding.


I don't think you take reality very seriously.

Becaaaause... I need a reason here, c'mon.


How prim and proper would you say professional basketball games are? Hockey? Football??

You all need to read the article more carefully. The article was about excessive screaming, not shouting out of response to a point. Read the article, then type.


This post is going to come out disorganized because Im responding to a person making points that make sense.

Um... 'kay, I'm still wondering why you people are using the "we don't have enough fencers" excuse. It's damn sad when weightlifting gets more air time than fencing. Weightlifting. Do you understand THAT reality? Is this making any sense to you now?


Note the sound of your arguement falling apart. How many hollywood sword fights do you watch that are all quiet and proper?

Wow... Now this covers it right here. Absolute lack of education. Look at every Zorro movie, every Musketeers movie and every other lame movie about fencing. Do you see fencers screaming at the top of their lungs going, "Yeah! Yeah!," "Et la!," "Foo foo foo foo," or "Bo bo bo bo?" Then, do they stop and yell again, like some fencers do?


Before I fenced I threw shotput.

Another sport with few competitors that gets lots of airtime. Thanks for reminding me.


Prise De Fer fencers are ALWAYS ON.

Yeah, well they're certainly not ON television.


But the only one it's hurting is you.

Right... Me and the 16,000 other fencers who complain about not getting air time. Be quiet.


As for doubting that MyrddinsPrecint is a dedicated fencer because she doesn't know some obscure fact about sport fencing originating in egypt,

Obsure?! Are you daft? That information is readily available all over this site and it's a standard test question on every college fencing class exam. My god, how does one grow up so poorly knowledged?


which you probably heard one time thought it sounded cool and decided to parrot...

Actually, I heard it from an Olympian, a national champion, etc... Y'know from serious fencers. If you've been to the Blade website, it's there as well. Um, yeah... sure, it sounded cool.

[afc fencer]

I see what you're saying. But, keep in mind those same players get fined for their actions should they go too far. There's shouting, but the NBA, etc, tells it's players to keep it under control. All major sports teams have PR reps that advise the players how to conduct themselves. If you break the rules, you get fined and even let go because the sport and the team are what's most important.

They only fine them if they curse or make a threat, but the nba doesnt fine for showing off or giving somone a dirty look. And when they do fine people its only so it looks like whatever sport organization is being family friendly. I mean a $1,000 fine aint much when your making 15 mil a year.

Why should we stop fencers from yelling. If there not yelling during the touch or carying on so they delay the bout then they should not recive a card.

Ive always hated at nacs when they make the spectators be real quite and not talk at all between touches. Junior mens saber gold medal bout at jos the ref made everyone stop talking the room was silent. It was the stupidest thing. In europe you have people yelling, screaming, and blowing horns. Those guys were gonna be the guys going to world cups, people in europe do it they better get use to it. Same thing goes for fencers yelling they do it in europe, they sure ain't gonna change, get use to it. If you don't like people yelling go play golf.

[achilleus]

Catal,

Fencing's roots go back a long way. They earliest signs of people using a mask while sparing were discovered in Egypt.

Not quite the same thing as you are implying.

Also, remember that the sport of fencing has close ties with the western european civilization. We use foils, epees, and sabres; decidely european weapons with rules that have a strong roots with that time period (the strip, the conventions, the salute, the weapons). And we are talking about the sport of fencing, not the all incompassing definition fo fencing.

It's kinda hard to judge how important something is to someone using only your own standards. You obviously feel knowledge of the history of fencing and swordplay is important. Others feel that hard work and competitive success are. If you use only your own limited standard you are guilty of the same prejudices as those only use ratings to measure anothers worth.


While MyrddinsPrecint's argument may have holes in it, your rebuttal is far from accurate or appropiate.

That said, vocalization is great. Annoying spectators and competitors on the next court is not. Refs know when to draw the line. I saw it happen to one of PdF's members at the NAC in KS.

Curling got on TV through hard work and lots of sponsors, not through changing it's game. Let's remember that.

Fencing doesn't need to make all sorts of changes, or hush up the competitors. It needs sponsors and money to get it on TV.

[Wizardly]

Yelling during the touch is bad? I always figured it was the yelling at your opponent after the touch that was the worst thing, and in the grand scheme of things, grunts and yells in their general direction aren't all that bad (now swears and insults, that would be crossing the line).

Forgive me if I reitterate some things that have been said, but I skipped over a lot of useless garbage riddled with fallacies like the whole ancient Egypt thing not making you a serious fencer or the implicit assumption that education means intelligence. Back to the topic guys! Save the insults for private messages!

I think screaming and emotion are good things. As was said, the TV guys advised the FIE to allow fencers to show MORE emotion (on top of all the screaming and grunting and carrying on that already does take place). Many speculate the reason for requiring a plastic shielded mask is to see the emotion. Having a faceless body scream at you can't be as unsettling as the dirty stares through the visor of your opponent. Spectators enjoy emotion. Spectating is the emotional story of the sport. Nobody wants to watch mindless automatons perform their tasks. Sportsman-like is good, but stale and professional as PKT posted, is just uninteresting. From what I've read of classical fencing, it was very calm and reserved and unathletic. It is my belief that this is the concept of fencing still held today...a sport that is downright prissy. If the emotion wasn't the appeal, there'd be no shots of tennis players after each point, they'd censor every yell at the ref and umpire, they wouldn't let you in on what the football coach is screaming about, and they'd cut to commercial when the baseball coach kicks dirt at the umpire, and they certainly wouldn't allow endzone dances at all.

I was at a tournament in a community center, and the fact that there was fencing naturally drew a crowd of spectators (I know, actual spectators). The bouts they were watching were the ones where screaming occurred. In my own bout, I took a flick to the butt which set off the light. After standing up, I jumped a slightly and yelped, just for good-natured show, and people laughed. The point: they were watching though they didn't really know what was going on, they were interested in the emotion and enough so to laugh at it. I think showing emotion is good for spectating of fencing.

Frankly, I don't know why tennis tries to hard to secure the prissy stigma fencing is plagued with. Using the word "fight" for a point is just out of place if the combatants/players are calm and reserved through it all. Look at how golf has changed: they've gone from golf clap to "GET IN THE HOLE!" I love that fencing is going from "good show old boy" to "YES! NICE TOUCH!"

As for what I think it does for the sport itself rather than the public image of the sport, wflaschka summed it up quite nicely.

Why scream? Apart from the cynical reasons (manipulation, intimidation), it's largely a release of tension. For me, it's almost autonomic. Like the ki-ai when you're breaking a piece of wood in karate. It's a focuser, adrenalizer, and release, all in one. Also, sport psychology-wise, self-reward and self-talk are significant zone tools.

The end result being more intense and athletic game. Is a scream required for it to be intense or athletic? Certainly not, just like not every martial artist needs to scream with every hit. To each their own, and I'd rather see people trying their hardest rather than the prissy, artsy foil fencing of old.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

First of all, I personally think that vocalization on the piste should be curtailed more than it is now. I have been guilty of doing it, but I don´t do it every bout, or even close to that.

A sport does not have to be full of emotional displays in order to get TV prime time. Previously listed examples are golf and curling. In norther Europe, cross-country skiiing and biathlon a major TV sports, and in both those the competitors don´t say anything until they pass the finish line and collapse from exhaustion. There are other examples.

Sumo is a more telling experience: It is combat sport - just as fencing - but has much more TV coverage. The viewership, both at arena and via TV, to any of the big 6 sumo competitions is larger than that of the combined viewership of all fencing competitions worldwide. In Sumo, you have 300+ pound strong men hitting each other´s faces and throats. Once you have seen a guy getting his knee bent 90 degrees straight to the side because a 550 pound guy stepped on it, you will have seen a level of pain unheard of in other sports, including fencing. Do the sumo wrestlers holler. No. Do they show any emotion? Extremely rarely, and very subdued - and when they do it they get scolded by the Sumo federation. They guy who got his knee wrecked did not peep until he got off the sumo ring, so that shows of pain were admissible. One guy who lost an important bout - which he almost had wrapped up - tapped the ring floor lightly once to let out his displeasure with himself. He did not say a thing, but was severly told off by the federation. Another won a bout that gave him eternal glory and higher formal rank than anyone in the whole country except the Imperial couple. He did not say a thing, or show any emotion in his face whatsoever. This was considered normal and proper. (Another thing is that the audience hollers quite a bit.) To wrap it up: A sport which has far fewer competitors than fencing gets much more audience in one country, than fencing gets in the whole world. Also, the competitors do not show any emotion at all. Does that tell you that emotional displays are necessary for TV air time? Oh, and how come I know all this? Simple. Eurosport airs 40+ hours of sumo each year, much more than its fencing coverage. They also cover a substantial amount of biathlon and curling, two other subdued sports. Each gets more air time than fencing.

Personally, I like that kind of stuff - nothing is more exciting for me to watch than two competitors duking it out, while showing a stony silence. The winner wins with a fantastic action, and underscores it with more of the same so the viewer can savour the action itself, and not be distracted by emotional displays. This probably has something to do with the fact that I don´t like emotional displays in real life either. MS was after ME in the recent Sw. Championships, and knowing what they would sound like was a major reason for me to split (along with having errands to do).

Catal - since you obviously feel so strong about this issue, why not invest some time in a sabre referee course? Do it well, and eventually you will get the opportunity to tell whtouche to be silent, or risk a card. Just imagine the feeling!

Whtouche - your comparison of Catal to the multiple personality is simply off.
Catal: Has a clear agenda
MP: Agenda is often indiscernible
Catal: Sticks to the topic
MP: Spins out to la-la-land immediately
Catal: Comes of as abrasive
MP: Often does not show any feelings whatsoever
Catal: Splits posts into paragraphs
MP: Usually writes run-on posts
So, where are the similarities?

To me, it seems as if this opinions here split along the weapons. An epeeist is against screaming, while several sabre fencers are vociferously for it, or at least accept it. This matches my experience of how fencers are in reality, see thead about different weapon personalities.

Wflascka writes:
Someone asked is screaming a part of sport fencing? Sure. Proof:
Step 1: Go to tournament, witness screaming.
Step 2: Done.


This attempt at proof is such that I wonder if you are being flippant, or just don´t care to put together a formal proof. Counterexample: hits with the sabre button happen from time to time, but that does not make them part of fencing. Same for other rules infractions.

Whtouche writes:
Note the sound of your arguement falling apart. How many hollywood sword fights do you watch that are all quiet and proper? I can't even explain to you why your arguement doesn't make sense it's so wrong. I'm just glad everyone else sees it and hopefully one day you'll wake up.


Whatever the merits of the case, this must rank as one of the weakest attempts at argument I have ever seen. Arguing with: "I can´t even explain" - sheesh!!!

When writing a post, please try to make the text as logically sound as a math proof. If it is significantly weaker than that, it becomes a pain to read.

pkt writes:
Imagine an instrumental musician who NEEDs to scream and jump about on stage to make his/her performance rather than let his / her instrument do all the performing...

Your choice.


Well, pkt, you and I are both over 30, but many posters here are significantly younger than that. Look at the music popular with the teenagers - those antics are a hit. So is the TV show "Jackass". Sad but true.

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Marcos]

wow certainly a subject that has generated debate - is there actually a rule? I know that if you shout and stop fencing, thinking you have touched, but haven't actually hit that is a yellow card offense.


I have to say in foil I scream and shout the whole time - basically coz i'm not very good at it...Sabre, my better weapon I tend not to shout so much - as someone put it, because i expected to get the point!

You have to seperate a scream with a shout for joy:

it's the semi final, you're losing 13-12 against someone who is on paper better than you, your concentration is 110%, and you complete an awesome multi-phased point - joy!!!

however, some fencers scream for the sake of it - there is one girl I know who even when she is 12-3 up in an early DE against a much weaker fencer still screams and shouts...spectators just think she's silly.

[Marcos]

on the back of this I'm going to ask a few non fencers (dad, wife, etc) who have come to comps what they think when people scream and shout!

does it add to the spectacle or is it all a bit comical?

[Gav]

On balance I think it's just part of the game. I don't emote very much on the piste [apart from the odd evil chuckle] so I'm probably very boring to watch. However I find it annoying to fence when people are screaming very loudly all over the place and I don't think it looks very proffesional. It really annoys me at the club when I am training as I think it's off-putting to any of the beginners.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Catal
Well... fencers have been screaming for a long time now. A very long time. Anybody see fencing on TV... Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?

Again, I said I don't think one has ANYTHING to do with another, but IF there is an effect I don't think its negative. Does that mean screaming will get fencing on TV? of course not! but I don't think that it will keep it off TV either.

-m

[Catal]

They only fine them if they curse or make a threat, but the nba doesnt fine for showing off or giving somone a dirty look. ... I mean a $1,000 fine aint much when your making 15 mil a year.

Yes, it's clear that a fine a should reflect a punishment, not a nuisance. But, the issue is the appearance of a punishment. It's there, people know about and players are expected to conform. Probably, it's just a little embarrassing and the players don't care, just as long as they know they're being watched.


Why should we stop fencers from yelling. If there not yelling during the touch or carying on so they delay the bout then they should not recive a card.

Yelling isn't the issue, it's irreverent yelling that's the problem.


It was the stupidest thing. In europe you have people yelling, screaming, and blowing horns.

In between touches, okay. That sounds positive. If that were the case here, I think it could make things very interesting.


Same thing goes for fencers yelling they do it in europe, they sure ain't gonna change, get use to it. If you don't like people yelling go play golf.

You aren't reading at all correctly what I'm saying. Again, read what I say carefully. Irreverent yelling = bad. Shouting once after a point = not bad. I've only been saying this for the past four posts.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by a517dogg
i have even gotten carded for it. thus, the USFA DOES penalize people for acting like brats on the strip.

wow. who carded you for it? anybody I know?

-m

[Catal]

Curling got on TV through hard work and lots of sponsors, not through changing it's game. Let's remember that.

1. Curling has 12 sponsors, USFencing has 13. You can find this information on the Curling/Fencing websites.

2. Curling and USFencing have the exact same sponsors, with one exception. The 13th sponsor USFencing has, one curling does not, is Adidas.

3. USFencing works just as hard as curling, but that's not what matters. It's how one sells the product, and USFencing hasn't been doing that.


It needs sponsors and money to get it on TV.

Conservatively, USFencing as $500,00 per fencing year. Curling makes $25 per year per person, that's $375,000 conservatively. So, not only does USFencing have more sponsors, it has more money, and both your points are invalid.

Look, all of you need to do more research. Listening to you people rationalize your answers without understanding the subject is getting ridiculous.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Catal
Again, you said this goes back to the roots of swordplay/fencing... the roots of being Egypt, so where is the proof?

as many others have already pointed out, this is a contrived and irrelevant argument designed to show off your nowhere near encyclopedic knowledge. And if you really want to get into discussions about the history of weapons on this board, I think you will find many people more knowledgable than you. Does that mean you don't know anything? of course not. then why do you seem to be saying that since myrddin's precint doesn't know this one trivial (and it IS trivial) fact that she somehow doesn't know anything.

You keep making references to Europe as though it were the root of swordplay and fencing. Again, it is not. Where is your proof in documented history? Also, stick to the sport aspect of things. We're talking about sport fencers, not killers.

so, you both complain that she isn't considering the TRUE roots of fencing by "only" discussing as far back as the middle ages AND tell her to stick to modern fencing???? wow! I'm gonna have to agree with whtouches opinion on this one....