Loud People on the Piste

[rukovsoft]

houlala,

fencing an elite sport...a lot of masters or league offcials, in their speeches, say that fencing is "a noble/ elite sport"..blabla...

i agree that due to the tradition, it s linked to the "dandy, gentleman, knight, mousquetaire, noble fighter" stereotype. on the other hand it can be dangerous to want fencing to become an elite sport...but is it really what people on this post mean?

id on t think so. as a european, i always had the opportunity that people in fencing team were in general clever with a lot of "finesse", and most of the time"academically" they were top of the class...does that make fencers members of an elite..i don t think so.
this impression of fencers=clever people, is reinforced as most of the good ncaa div1 fencing programs are ivy league ones (except st john, and ohio state)...all the top schools have fencing programs.
but do you have to be clever, or academically good (i make the difference between clever and academically clever though they re linked) to be a good fencer, the question is tricky...

[wflaschka]

This cleverness/elite question has come up in some of my conversations with other instructors.

One friend had a compelling observation. In very simplistic terms, the highly athletic people are quickly and easily slotted into "legitimate" sports, e.g., sports with funding, varsity teams, television coverage, &etc. It follows that the "non-legitimate" sports get the dregs -- the hobbyists, the intellectuals, the tourists, the experimenters, the washouts from the real sports.

Anecdotally, I've worked with gifted basketball and tennis players who tried fencing but eventually ended up on university teams for other sports. These beginners had none of the motor-skill problems that many other newbie fencers have. They learned fencing with impressive ease, and got good very quickly.

Going by my fellow instructor's logic, fencers aren't smart/unathletic because fencing requires them to be that way... those are just the sort of people that fencing gets.

I somewhat agree with this observation. However, another observation is that fencing is not intrinsically a team sport. Independent-minded athletes, or (less generously) athletes rejected by team players, are attracted to the individual aspect of fencing.

[darius]

It takes brains to be a good fencer, just like it takes class and good taste to like Classical and Jazz. Get my point?

Taste is relative. I know plenty of smart, musically-educated folks who can't stand classical music. (Most are Suzuki-method grads, but that's a rant for another time...)

It takes brains to understand ANY sport completely. You think fencing is tough? Try football, with 22 players on the field, two opposing playbooks that run in the hundreds of pages, nearly a dozen coaches, and incalculable combinations of strategies.

darius

[rukovsoft]

agree, but at football theres no/few creativity from the players !!!
they just follow the systems invented by the coach.
in soccer it s the same, the creativity lies in the dribble, the way the player shoots..the rest is just a system...
fencing, well, if you re not creative, you can be a descent fencer, but you ll nerver be a "good" fencer.

ie: in epee, if you know how to extend your arm a the good moment, and manage to have your point goes before the rest of the body (this point control that so many americans lack in epee; however this is compensated by a better athleticism than in europe in general. top level fencers in america, of course have this point control, i mjust talking of the average fencer...that s the reason why they re less fencers with french grips in the US) you ll be an ok fencers. but when you meet somebody who can do those 2 things as good as you do, but has creativity (i mean will do a move different than the system you re used to)...you will lose the match !

[darius]

agree, but at football theres no/few creativity from the players !!! they just follow the systems invented by the coach.

Obviously, any individual sport is going to allow you more creativity, because you don't have to work within a team framework.

However, if you don't see the creativity inherent in what great team players do -- take a closer look.

Systems can't teach Chris Drury to play the puck between the legs of a defenseman, fake a shot to draw the goalie into a butterfly, and make another move so that his shot goes into nothing but pristine net... (and he just got traded to Buffalo! WOOHOO!)

Ideally (for oneself or one's team), everything would go according to the system, and individual creativity would never come into play; if my 1st intention riposte hit every time, do you think I'd ever do anything else?

But it doesn't, and so I have to trust that my technique and training buys me the chance to get the hell out of Dodge. The same thing is true in team sports -- only it's harder to see, since there's more action at any given moment.

darius

[Indy4ever]

I can't help but think you are all bleeding the lines between 'creativity' and 'natural ability' with your comments. This is not really an issue of creativity, since creativity is governed by natural ability (the ability to be creative).

But lets not argue about semantics (I may have just lost the plot with the jungle of words you guys have created - its not easy to hack through an get to the point).

Nuff sed. I agree with darius: ever actually played any team sports?You would see that individual ability and creativity (thinking up new stuff that no-one sees coming) is what makes players valuable, even if it just something as simple as slipping the ball between your legs to evade the defender.

[Joe biebel]

I hate it when fencers scream in my face. Especially the protracted, multisyllabic kind. You know the "YAAAH, up, up, up, up, up, up." Typically the director simply awards the touch. I've never had a director card an opponent for "celebrating." Depending on the situation, I will do a number of things. I will always bring my game up to the max after a screamer does his/her thing. They just made getting touches against me a whole lot harder for themselves. If I'm particularly irritated, I will take the next touch in style, and then proceed to make their scream/celebration seem amatuerish. Finishing my action with some finger pointing, lewd hip actions, (reality stops approximatetly here) and a victory lap around the gym with a few high fives from friends and team mates. This invariably gets the notice of the director and he/she will card me or at the very least tell both fencers to knock it off. I prefer the later, but in either case my opponent is made to feel humiliated. Even more than I was after their tirade. It hopefully stops there.

As a director, I will not allow any noise but a brief of grunt from exertion or a "YEESSS" in the event of a well executed one light action. Certainly anything that is directed at the opponent, or if I feel it is an attempt to sway my decision, will be punished with the appropriate card. Funny thing is, all of the "crap" disappears if you show your willingness to run a respectful strip. Basically, a lot of directors are okay with loud displays, but I suspect that a fair number of them don't really like it, and don't realize that they have the latitude in their directing to "improve" things.

Directors create some of the "display" situations. In fact they can make things worse (ending each action with both fencers screaming) by showing favor or having the perception of showing favor to a fencer that screams after an action. Directors, if you don't like it, stop it. If you do like it, (or permit it) you get what you deserve, a spectacle.

[Inquartata]

I wish there were more referees like you.

[Peach]

Last weekend some of the fencers were talking about yellers, and said that our sabre competition was unusual because there wasn't any yelling. I said, "I've been yelling," and they said, having seen me competing for several hours, "When?"

Apparently, even though I do from time to time involuntarily say "Hey-yo," and "Whoo," and "Ai-yo," I do not fall under the description of a screamer. Good to know.

A foilist from our club decided to fence some sabre with us Monday night. He came off the strip smiling and sweating, and said, "That's really intense." I said, "Now do you see why sabre fencers yell?" and he nodded enthusiastically.

[three_hundred_fifty_five]

Originally posted by Catal
And, you people wonder why fencing isn't on television.

Who taught you that screaming after a point was part of sport fencing? If you're going to say something, please support it. Some of us take this sport seriously, and I'd much rather get into a debate with someone who can make arguments based on historically documented evidence. ...

Oh that's rich. An argument based on historically documented evidence.

[three_hundred_fifty_five]

Catal posts things that are either intentionally inflamatory, or he needs to brush up on his social skills.

Well, now, that seems to be more obvious now.

Don't you tell me about being inflammatory you ignorant simpleton.

Wait, what's that, you are insulting people. I thought that was below you?

This is an open bulletin board, moron. Also, I have constitutional protection. You do know what about those rights, yes?

Oh that's rich. This is a bulletin board and by signing up, you voluntarily chose to abide by the rules for posting on this BB. The web administrator, may at his discretion, remove all your messages and revoke your permission to post here.
As an American, you have a constitutional right to freedom of speech. You don't necessarily have a right to post here. You have a privilege to post here.

[three_hundred_fifty_five]

Originally posted by Catal
Another idea which I proposed to the board before is for the NCAA to reform itself and actually promote ALL the sports rather than being fully money driven.

You actually want to tell the NCAA that they should give up a SIX BILLION dollar a year industry so that a few unpopular sports can have a little more attention? That is absolutely, the most inane thing you could possibly tell the NCAA. That's your sales pitch? "It's not fair. We want attention, give us money."


I do think ESPN/ESPN2 can spare 1 hour of their 18-24 hours of sportscenter a day!

No. No they can't spare 1 hour because 1 hour could mean the difference between $1,000,000 and $150,000. ESPN is too busy trying to run a business to listen to your complaints.

This is strange, you know why fencing cannot make it on television and yet you raise a huge self-indulgent raucous that the USFA hasn't put fencing on television. Catal, you are a troll.

[Dragonfly]

Okay, I'm going to backpeddle on the word elite. Though it has historical reference that was negative, if placed in its' correct historical context I can live with it. You guys did a good job - it took three years for me to deal with Elite; but I still can't say it.

I have always encouraged yelling, the quiet ones tick me off; I recommend yelling loudly when ever possible. In consideration of others, I have kept fairly quiet on the strip.

Can't believe you all called each other moron, idiot and finally, troll! Remember the word elite should also include the mannerisms of an elite person; that is someone who has control of their negative emotions and keeping open to those with differing minds; and being graceous to those whose mannerisms are different, with the objective to raise another to a higher level.

I too, get tired of classical music to be honest about it; and in fact classical/realism 'art' lost some of it's appeal as well, when you see how it's accomplished it doesn't seem that great, the improvisation is tremendously creative and 'out of the box'. But we do go back to it now and then,we have to - it's like classical fencing, our roots are important and we take our lesson from them.

Anon.