vent frustration with USFA web site

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Before one slams the website, one should compared it with something, or several things.

1. Money going it to the website. There is only such much that can be done by a volunteer organization. Considering the amount of info available, I think that one gets a lot of info, if not necessarily functionality, for the price. I have seen a lot worse websites that were paid for by the organization.

2. Other websites covering the same general topic. If one compares usfencing.org with fencing.se, the website for the Swedish Fencing Fenderation, one sees that:
* fencing.se has much better graphics
* usfencing.org has more info pieces
* fencing.se has everything clearly dated
* usfencing.org has much more ranking/rating info
* fencing.se has a higher update rate
* fencing.se is considerably easier to navigate
* fencing.se has more results (some going back to the early 1900eds)
On balance, I think that fencing.se is better, but usfencing.org is not bad. The problem appears to be that it has not seen a layout rework in some time, and suffers from overload. This is consistent with the stated ratio USFA employees/members.

If the USFA would spend money on fixing web input (membership&tourney) they would be relieved of a lot of phone and fax calls, and the payback time of that invenstment would probably be short. Why not file a petition from the members to that effect?

Reading this thread makes me appreciate how good I have it. If I need to talk to the SvFF, our secretary Monica is almost always there. She seems to know *everything*, remembers details from discussions quite some time ago, never seems stressed, and always leaves you feeling better when you put down the phone. Membership is fixed easily by email, and other emails get prompt and informative replies. All this for a lower membership fee than that of USFA, and by a smaller staff.

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Peach]

Originally posted by Agent_V
Well, 12 mg per mL means 12 g/L, which is (heard from a doctor second hand) enough that you would have trouble holding your weapon from the jitteryness, let alone fencing.

When I was at Coaches College a few years ago, a USOC anti-doping representative talked to us. She said that a small woman could get to that level with a couple of double cappuccinos.

Many of the drugs on the USOC list are prohibited because they are performance enhancers in Olympic sports--but not necessarily in fencing. The frequent boast of some fencers that they did well despite hangovers would support that.

[oiuyt]

On-line event entry is something that the USFA would love to have. The main issue isn't technical, isn't who should we outsource to, how should we handle credit cards and a secure server online, it's liability. The insurance company that the USFA uses has been extremely reluctant to accept any form of waiver that could be done other than a physical signature for each competition that is run. Trying to connect waivers with competitions that are months apart and when the waiver needs to be associated with multiple competitions would be a logistical nightmare. Trying to sort out who needs to get a signature at the event and who sent in their entry by snailmail and is already covered would likewise be a nightmare. Trying to account for underage fencers travelling without a parent or legal guardian who don't have the paperwork filled out and find out at registration that they're SOL and flew across the country to not fencer would be a nightmare.

The #1 thing that I would like to see is online registration and membership. I understand why we don't yet have it however.

The #1 stupid thing about the website is that the documents link basically tells you to go look in the forms section for all of the documents (rules, ops manual, handbook, etc.). These aren't forms. We HAVE a documents section. Why not move the links/files and use the structure that's already in place?

-B :)

[wflaschka]

oiuyt's post on insurers requiring physical signatures sounds very reasonable.

And, FWIW, if I thought it would turn into anything, I'd personally volunteer to rebuild, redesign and rearchitect the USFA site into something clearer and easier to maintain. I'm just some schmoe, though. I'm sure they get offers every day. If my online profile improves, or fencing-world profile elevates, so they'd know I'm for real, I'll send off a note to them.

I think probably all of us would help, if they actually tried to tap this resource.

[qatet]

Interesting point about the signatures, Brad. I wonder if that could just become part of the membership form? Then you'd fill out your membership and mail it in once a year, and do online entry for the repeating events, still avoiding the pesky fax.

. . .

I've never seen any real problems with the website's design, in part because I'm now familiar enough with it that I know where to look for things (although, yes, forms vs. docs does get me at times). I've actually seen a number of fencing sites that use a similar format and presume that people will be familiar with the design as a result of cruising the USFA site. A fencing website format, if you will.

[dberke]

Originally posted by oiuyt
The #1 stupid thing about the website is that the documents link basically tells you to go look in the forms section for all of the documents (rules, ops manual, handbook, etc.). These aren't forms. We HAVE a documents section. Why not move the links/files and use the structure that's already in place?

I agree, the arrangement of the forms/documents area on the website doesn't make much sense. Plus, I discovered the other night that they aren't even up-to-date!

On the FOC website, they have a new USFA Rulebook - the 2002 edition. However, on the regular USFA site, the rulebook is still the 1999 edition. Is there any reason for the difference (such as the new rule book needs official adoption or something like that)? I would think that one of the most important documents on the USFA website would be kept up-to-date, especially considering all of the rule changes that took effect last August!

Dan

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Peach

If the $600,000 approximate number mentioned earlier were valid, that would pay for rent, fax machines, copiers, telephones, computers, and a small number of employees.

It could---but would it? Or would that money just be siphoned off to provide further perks and support for elites and junior programs, as per usual?

Still, I have been getting my money's worth---at least until next year, when there seems to be only one Div III event planned, to make more room for...hmmm...

[Gav]

I thought that I would chime in on this one. You guys are not alone with this. There has been a lot of dissatisfaction with my local organisations website - www.scottish-fencing.com. What seems to happen is that people volunteer to overhaul and maintain it then nothing gets done. Also the SF themselves have a habit of not organising things properly. There is a new guy looking at the site now and hopefully we'll soon see an improvement.

[oiuyt]

Gav's point is what really matters. Getting people to volunteer to design and build a site is not hard. Getting someone to volunteer to maintain it, and then DO so despite other work/family/life committments is REALLY hard.

I've never really had a problem with the USFA website. It works. It's easy to find information that I need. Could it be better? Yes, primarily in getting some updates a bit faster, and there's some few random bits of information that I'd like to see (a listing of how many fencers have what rating in each weapon, preferably, although not necessarily broken down by section/division), and the aforementioned online membership and entry registration. But overall it's a good site. Certainly considering that it's maintained as a volunteer effort in spare time, but even without taking that into consideration I'd consider it a job well done.

-B :)

[Catlady]

Design wise the site is definitely very plain, however I would rather see a site err on the side of being too plain rather than being too gaudy. The links and text aren't too hard to deal with either. Granted in a perfect world the website would have exactly the right balance, but who lives in a perfect world (except those people in the Walmart commercials )

Yeah, it would be nice though if they got results up a bit sooner.

My gripe is with trying to find information on wheelchair fencing. The site that links off the main site isn't a lot of help or wasn't last I looked, then their isn't much info on that anywhere. The inspirational stories are nice, but if you're trying to figure out how to start a program you're mostly on your own as far as finding out who to ask and where to find necessary information.

[Stryder]

Sign them en masse at check in. One waiver = 20 signatures. We all line up to check in every day anyway and it wouldn't add more than a second or two to sign your name.

As for the website, th e USFA doesn't spend anything on it, so they get far more than their money's worth. Huge thanks to our humble and appreciated webmaster for doing a service so well that we have the luxury of taking him for granted.

Online registration would be a huge plus. We all agree to that. Faxing entries in a ridiculous idea. The reason no changes have been made is because the USFA is a bit of a slow moving beast. I doubt that the idea has been raised less than a dozen times but it just takes them a while to getr new ideas implemented.

Keep after them to initiate online entries!

Long time no write, everyone! How have you been?
Hello to Zelda, she said Hi to me at the DHM but then disappeared!

[Zelda]

It was called weapons check Mike!!! I was around for a bit longer.....didnt stay till the end of MF though....I just wanted to escape.

[oiuyt]

Originally posted by Stryder
Sign them en masse at check in. One waiver = 20 signatures. We all line up to check in every day anyway and it wouldn't add more than a second or two to sign your name.

"I'm sorry, I KNOW you're nth in the country and need to earn points here to make the national team, but you're only 17 and you forgot to get your parent, who isn't travelling with you, to sign a sheet before you left home. You've just wasted your trip and will be staying home for the World Championships. Better luck next time kid."

-B :)

[Dee EffEll]

Originally posted by oiuyt
"I'm sorry, I KNOW you're nth in the country and need to earn points here to make the national team, but you're only 17 and you forgot to get your parent, who isn't travelling with you, to sign a sheet before you left home. You've just wasted your trip and will be staying home for the World Championships. Better luck next time kid."

-B

"Oh wait, dad's down the hall. Be right back" [sound of kid running down hall with release in hand, followed by him signing dad's name in the bathroom, and then running back to the table] "Here you go. Dad says to say hi for him."

Or maybe, just maybe, the kid takes it to the venue hotel across the street, faxes it to dad, who faxes it right back. But frankly, I suspect forgery is much simpler.

[graphixaddict]

im curious to know if any members of the usfa board or whoever runs it checks this forum, i mean shouldnt the members have some say in the direction of the organization, has someone sent this thread to ever email address they can find on the usfa website. it seems like they should be setting aside money from dues to pay for these kind of advancements, to me it seems like they are to cheap to stop sucking time and energy off their volunteer who runs the website. They should without a doubt be hiring a firm or a reputable designer and webmaster. I mean in this modern era a website is the first face of an orginization and people are either turned on or off by what they see. They need to set aside money for new servers, 2 fax machines to handle tourny registration and membership signups, come on, it is not that hard to set up credit card payment and automatic membership signups, thats rediculous, ive seen websites for little antique stores and other obscure stores that you can buy over the internet, and were talking about a national orginization that cant accomplish that? it is absurd that members should have to deal with that kind of BS especially with the figures that someone posted for how much they make a year, i pay 50 a year in dues for US chess federation and that gets me a full color magazine every month, a member store with discounted prices on gear, realtime results of tournies, a full searchable database of players and rankings. Come on i know chess geaks are smart enough to pull it off, but are fencers that stupid? i dont think so. looks like the USFA needs stronger more competent management.
Graphix

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally posted by oiuyt
"I'm sorry, I KNOW you're nth in the country and need to earn points here to make the national team, but you're only 17 and you forgot to get your parent, who isn't travelling with you, to sign a sheet before you left home. You've just wasted your trip and will be staying home for the World Championships. Better luck next time kid."

-B

that's me. except, they look at me, say who the f are you, and go back to whatever they were doing....

and then i pretend YOU'RE my father.

(now, isn't THAT a scary thought )

[oiuyt]

Uhm, yeah, cuz THAT'S what I want to encourage the USFA to do... encourage our fencers to commit forgery and fraud. Not to mention that this would result in removing what value waivers have.

"My lawyer says we still get to sue you, that waiver wasn't legitimate. What's that? Your insurance company isn't willing to cover because you didn't get a valid waiver? That's really too bad, now, isn't it."

Graphix- You still don't get it. What you're talking about doesn't answer the main problem. Liability. How often does a chess tournament (or antiques purchase) result in injury? It's easy to outsource web hosting, accepting credit cards, etc., etc. Getting a solution that is acecptable to the USFA's insurance company is not. Until you solve that problem there won't be online event registration. The USCF spends about $78,000 on their website each year. The USFA spends about $0. Is it worth $5/year from each member to make our website the equivalent of the USCF website? I doubt it. The USCF website is very nice. I'm surprised at the quality for only $78k. It isn't enough better than the USFA's to warrant our changing however.

-B :)

[graphixaddict]

i apologize oiuyt. i posted befor i read your liability post, but again i think there must be an easy way out of this, come on, you can sign up for surfing, snowboarding, skateboarding, and mountain biking over the internet. i dont know the law of waivers and such but there must be a way to write off all liability in a waiver. Ive seen credit card payment forms that use "digital signatures." tere must be a way to do it. And to the comment about spending, thats exactly my point, WHY ISNT the usfa spending money on a website. The uscf makes every bit of their finacial data available online, why cant usfa members see where the money goes and vote on spending or at least have the chance to complain about it.
I buy all my chess gear from uscf they have the best prices and they still make decent profit off what they sell at very competitive prices. Why doesnt the usfa expand and commercialize a similar system to raise money. Who cares if they raise dues 5 or 10 dollars, holy crap you might have to pay 10 dollars more to get a fully automated registration system, a fully function staff that maintains and posts results in realtime, maybe we can even get a monthly or bi monthly magazine with pictures and story's of the last months events. Hints and tips sections, question and answer, contests, cover art contests, anything. I mean why isnt the usfa coming up with creative and interesting ways to expand. The usfa needs a fulltime staff, and leaders who are able to design and impliment programs to expand fencing to a larger audience.
thats it for now.

[Prometheus]

I may be incorrect, but I was under the impression that a law passed that made digital signatures legally binding.

Presumably this would include liability wavers?

[Stryder]

Originally posted by oiuyt
"I'm sorry, I KNOW you're nth in the country and need to earn points here to make the national team, but you're only 17 and you forgot to get your parent, who isn't travelling with you, to sign a sheet before you left home. You've just wasted your trip and will be staying home for the World Championships. Better luck next time kid."

-B

Yeah, what's you're point? How different is that from the state of affairs now? If you screw up any part of the registration system you are SOL and wasted all of your money. Parents and coaches of under age fencers know that there are things they need to do to ensure their kid has all of his I's dotted and T's crossed.
If the only reason the USFA doesn't have online reg is because the fencers are too stuipid to follow directions then there is no point to this, because fencers can't navigate the internet well enough to read this message.

There is no valid arguement to not having online reg that I can see other than the fact that the usfa has no head.

Change must be made. Rise up sons and daughters of the revolution! Down with long lines and other thigns that bother us.
We are the future! (Yes, even the vets)