Help with fending off a flesche...

[remise]

Help!!! I can't seem to fend off a flesche. I've tried all sorts of advice given by my fellow epee fencers, but nothing seems to work for me. I'm older, not as quick as my younger counter-parts, and by the time I "see" the flesche coming, I only have one second, and then....darn. I'm hit. I could really use some advice.

[veeco]

Originally posted by remise
Help!!! I can't seem to fend off a flesche. I've tried all sorts of advice given by my fellow epee fencers, but nothing seems to work for me. I'm older, not as quick as my younger counter-parts, and by the time I "see" the flesche coming, I only have one second, and then....darn. I'm hit. I could really use some advice.

1- Don't stay too close
2- Change the rythm of your footwork so that you are less predictible. If your opponent knows you will be at a certain place at a certain time he will have it easy.
3- Keep pressing defensively to make him uncomfortable attacking
4- Try to read into his fleche. That takes a while but once you get used to it you can pretty much feel when someone is going to attack.

[Craig]

You can also go the psych out rout if that doesn't work. A good stiff hit to the sternum will make them think twice before flecheing again.




Craig

[mep350]

Originally posted by veeco
Try to read into his fleche. That takes a while but once you get used to it you can pretty much feel when someone is going to attack.

That's what I do. I can just sense when someone (esp. my twin.) is gunna fleche. I parry it before they can make the touch.

You can also go the psych out rout if that doesn't work. A good stiff hit to the sternum will make them think twice before flecheing again.

I do that too. My sis is scared to fence me now. When I make the touch, I make you feel it. Nuff said.

Molly

[fencingguy]

Pretty much what Veeco said. Control the opportunities for them to fleche. I posted a longer explanation in a post on defending against a long powerful lunge and the theory is pretty much the same. Figure out when your opponent is fleching: The distance, the footwork you are doing (are you stepping in or out?) etc...

When you have narrowed it down, work to only create that moment when you want to. Trick your opponent into fleching at the wrong time. Change the distance by moving in and out using both small and large steps and fast and slow. Make them think you're closer than you are and draw the fleche. Then step back and parry riposte. You can, of course, do a number of different things, but the parry seems to be the easiest for most people. Personally I like stepping into the preparation and catching them right as they start.

If they're deceiving your parry with a disengage (or for the purist a degage, accent on the last e) try to hold off on your parry until the last possible moment. The other option is to try to counter attack to the arm with angulation, or, if you feel more comfortable with it, stepping into the attack either with or without the blade.

Hope this helps!

[oiuyt]

Another solution that hasn't been mentioned yet: Most fencers tend to always fleche to the same side (usually weapon side). Crowd that side of the strip. Fence as close to the edge as possible. Even if your opponent fleches properly, and is going straight at you and only swerves after hitting s/he is still going to be less likely to try to fleche if they would need to immediately leave the strip. And then there are all of the fencers who fleche improperly and are already swerving mid-fleche. They all now run the risk of leaving the strip before scoring which of course negates their touch.

Just to make it clear, there are 2 distinct benefits to this strategy. 1) Fencing near the edge of the strip means that an improper fleche or one that doesn't score immediately will end up with your opponent off the side of the strip and unable to score, 2) Because you (and your opponent) are near the edge of the strip, your opponent is less likely to fleche in the first place.

This doesn't directly help deal with the fleche, but it solves the problem by resulting in fewer fleches in the first place.

-B :)

[wflaschka]

Also, if you're feeling unoriginal or uninspired, you can just "run the numbers." Sometimes, I'm not controlling the footwork action properly, or I'm surprised. I'm gonna be hit, but I still need to make a response that helps me in the long-term.

Fast, long attacks suffer from some weaknesses. When you do them, you can't stop easily, you're committed from the get-go, the opponent knows precisely what you're doing, you can't really defend yourself if the opponent finds a parry. Your worst nightmare, as a flecher, is an unpredictable opponent.

So, against fencers who do long, fast attacks, you can mix up three simple responses:

1. Attack in time
2. Give distance and find a parry
3. Duck with counter attack

You'll be hit often, but this method isn't for helping you in the current action. It's for the next fleche, and the fleche after that. Your unpredictability, mixed with the tiny number of choices they have in a fleche, will eventually combine to make them look for other safer attacks.

Best results will be achieved if you show them your reaction just as they begin theirs; show them you're unpredictable, they'll pause and regroup. I've stopped a zillion preparations just by faking into them. I'm a foilist, but this kills in epee too.

[magma]

I'm an older epee fencer, and actually I seldom encounter a person who can fleche in epee well, but since the rule state that you can double touch, try for a touch to the bicep while your opponent is flying and it's too late for him to retreat. wait for the committment then SLAY HIM! [sorry,that was just bubbling under the surface]

[Artisan]

I believe that the best opportunity for a double against a fleche is to the mask, since if they are doing it properly, the arm is unexposed, or they've controlled your blade, so the face is the next available target.

[Ramrod]

Another benefit of Artisan's double to the mask is the intimidation factor. It may not help with this fleche but second thoughts may come before the next one.

Few people are comfortable charging into a weapon pointed at their face.

[Marcos]

start sabre?


just kidding...more unsavoury tactics are moving in the way of the flesh and complaining to the president that you opponent is not "fleshing past", counterattack to sternum/mask as described above...

...but the best is to check-out your opponent before hand - if you see he/she is a flesher, attack his knees hard on the first point -

he can't flesh without legs!

[Ramrod]

I think the two are entirely related, but that's a thought for another tread.

How many saberuers drive Jeeps?

[Inquartata]

Drat you, Marcos, you beat me to the punch ( line )!

[AndrewH]

That one's easy. The first time they fleche, drop down, close your eyes, and keep your weapon pointed at their groin. Even if you dont actualy hit them, the threat is enough to stop them in their tracks if they ever try it again.

edit: this only applies when fencing a male opponent. For females, the mask is the next best target.

[Sabresque]

The other serious women's sabre fencer in our club drives a jeep. Wierd.

[Wizardly]

Originally posted by AndrewH
this only applies when fencing a male opponent

...not wearing a protective cup.

Suggesting a hit to the groin is a revokable offense.
:::revokes AndrewH's Guy Card:::

[Peach]

Originally posted by Ramrod
I think the two are entirely related, but that's a thought for another tread.

How many saberuers drive Jeeps?

Huh. me. Jeep Wrangler. How very odd.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

We had a jeep until a year or so ago. Does that rate an honorable mention?

[Chris]

Originally posted by oiuyt
Another solution that hasn't been mentioned yet: Most fencers tend to always fleche to the same side (usually weapon side). Crowd that side of the strip. Fence as close to the edge as possible.

O' is right, a lot of fencers DO do that, but it's specific to the individual, so it requires some 'scouting'

Even if your opponent fleches properly, and is going straight at you and only swerves after hitting s/he is still going to be less likely to try to fleche if they would need to immediately leave the strip.

Well, beleive it, or not, if your opponent fleches 'properly', they might not even pass you at all!

Someone who has the properly developed technique, (which is reare since few coaches teach it, even if the know it.) and distance perception, can actually resume an enguard position, right in front of you (assuming that you haven't actually advanced against the attack, and caused corps-a-corps)

And then there are all of the fencers who fleche improperly and are already swerving mid-fleche. They all now run the risk of leaving the strip before scoring which of course negates their touch.

I don't thinkthat is the problem remise is having.

Just to make it clear, there are 2 distinct benefits to this strategy. 1) Fencing near the edge of the strip means that an improper fleche or one that doesn't score immediately will end up with your opponent off the side of the strip and unable to score, 2) Because you (and your opponent) are near the edge of the strip, your opponent is less likely to fleche in the first place.

Well, I agree, partly with 1, but I am not sure 2 really holds up; people will still do it, until the ref' starts enforcing the off-the-side rule properly, which judging from the thread on that, is not very often.

This doesn't directly help deal with the fleche, but it solves the problem by resulting in fewer fleches in the first place.

-B

My 2 cents worth, is (aside from going back to the back issue of distance) to consider whether there is something that triggers an opponent into actually launching the fleche.

Often (though not always) they are looking fof YOUR blade to be in one of several specific position, so you may find you can trigger it when you are ready for it, or, avoid it completely.

Good luck!

[npkeith]

Tongue firmly in cheek, (with homageto "The Thirteenth Warrior".....

Grow faster