Latest news on electrical strip R&D?

[edew]

First, I'm not sure what is the latest from the FIE concerning what might be the future of electrical fencing and the need for grounded strips. I imagine that as long as epee is fenced the way it is, we will need grounded strips to distinguish on target and off target hits in epee.

So, assuming that nothing about the current electrics is going to change, what is the latest R&D status for grounded strips.

The main drawbacks to existing rolled up copper strips are:
1. Their weight and difficulty to transport (from the truck to the ground)
2. Taping down (properly)
3. Repair.
4. Lack of support on unfriendly surfaces. At the moment, for NACs, we don't get just strips, we also get carpeting to go underneath them. That's additional expense we might prefer to do without. Without the carpeting, fencing on strips taped onto concrete flooring is dangerous and painful. Most non-college gym venues don't have carpeted flooring, except for some hotel "ballrooms" which might then not like the idea of having tape stains.

I'm thinking of having drilled metal sheets screwed onto plastic sections. Each section may be 9' x 6' (the 6' being the width), with six sections altogether.

If the metal sheet gets too dented, remove it and replace with another for $100 or so.

The plastic supporting structure is made of hard plastic with some give, but is sturdy enough to take the pounding. This structure may also be drilled to lighten its weight. I'm thinking 20lbs per section. Each structure should be 9' x 6' x 1" (say).

Each section can snap into each other, or have some other way to secure them properly.

The only problem with such a sectional set-up is that it must be placed on totally flat surfaces. if there is any warping of the floor for drainage or other purposes, the warping may also warp the sections, which might break them.

You can then ship a two-strip set (with machine and reels and floor cords) in a specially-made container with wheels. When opened, the container can be folded backwards to become the stand for the machines.

[Gav]

LP are doing tests on a rubber mat that conducts. Not too sure how it works. I saw one at the Birmingham International, briefly, but didn't realise it was grounded.

[edew]

Is it heavy?

[neevel]

Actually, copper strips are easier to transport than plate strips because they aren't really much heavier (except for the cheese-grater type plate strips which create more problems than they solve), and most significantly are much less bulky when rolled up than a disassembled plate strip. You can pack several copper strips in the volume that one plate strip would take. This becomes significant if your shipper is charging based on % volume of the trailer filled or the number of crates and pallets, instead of weight (care to guess how Roadway or other trucking companies typically charge?). That's why all the new strips that the USFA is purchasing to evaluate are copper at this point.

The lack of bulk also make transportation from the truck to the venue, and moving the strips from their crates to their location in the venue easier. Currently, you need two trips with a forklift to move the two strip crates, and then you only need two people to carry each strip from the crate to where it will be laid out. Plate strips will require many more back and forth trips. Now, once in position and set-up they'd require less maintenance and repair, so you'd make up the extra time spent in set-up and tear-down by not having to be up till 11 pm (or later) fixing them after each day of competition.

One idea that has been bandied about is for the USFA to simply buy or lease a whole trailer-- then the per-volume charge is not an issue, and shipping plate strips would be a viable option.

-Dave

[Gav]

Originally posted by edew
Is it heavy?

I don't really know. According to Barry Paul it's not anymore heavy than a standard rubber piste. There was some discussion of it on their discussion forum at www.fencingforum.com.

[Wizardly]

Of the surfaces I've fenced on, I most enjoy the system Northwestern uses. Perforated aluminum plates approx 1x2 m, that they foil-tape together and place on some kind of mat. (It's been a while so I don't recall clearly). The setup and repairs were a snap. The only occasional problem was when a corner of the plates was bent, it caused a tripping problem. However, repairs were easy enough: cut the tape, replace the plate. Hammer it flat again when you had the time. The grip on the shoes was MUCH better than any copper fabric surface I've fenced on. The smaller plate size made them easy to stack and move around.

Frankly, I'm disappointed when I'm not fencing on solid plates rather than fabric. However, this is mitigated by fencing on a conductive surface. You might contact Dr. Schiller about where he got them. To be honest, it doesn't sound too hard to find this from a non-fencing source, i.e. industrial suppliers, or even hardware stores.

[neevel]

Laurie replaced the aluminum cheese-grater plate strips with copper mesh strips about 3 years ago. Those thin plate strips might seem good when new, but they will inevitably get bent out of shape. When that happens it's well nigh impossible to keep them taped down and properly aligned, and they present a real tripping hazard. Perhaps you only recall the ones Northwestern had when they were new, but by the time they were near the end of their lifespan they were horrid. A well-made copper strip (as opposed to the copper strips that were delivered to the USFA in 2000-- they were not what the USFA had ordered, BTW), maintained properly, will almost certainly have a longer lifespan for tournament use than the thin plate strips. For a permanent installation, where you're able to nail the plates securely down to the floor and be done with it, the cheese-grater plates can work well.

Any of the plate strips out there that are currently worth invesitgating have either the metal mounted on a thick piece of backing material (wood, etc.), or else are of hollow, extruded aluminum pieces (the BG and Turkish strips). These strips are superior to copper mesh by most criteria, but the unique logistical issues the USFA has (needing to ship a single stock of tournament equipment back and forth across an entire continent as economically as possible) weigh heavily in favor of copper.

-Dave

[edew]

Originally posted by Wizardly
Of the surfaces I've fenced on, I most enjoy the system Northwestern uses. Perforated aluminum plates approx 1x2 m, that they foil-tape together and place on some kind of mat. (It's been a while so I don't recall clearly). The setup and repairs were a snap. The only occasional problem was when a corner of the plates was bent, it caused a tripping problem. However, repairs were easy enough: cut the tape, replace the plate. Hammer it flat again when you had the time. The grip on the shoes was MUCH better than any copper fabric surface I've fenced on. The smaller plate size made them easy to stack and move around.

Frankly, I'm disappointed when I'm not fencing on solid plates rather than fabric. However, this is mitigated by fencing on a conductive surface. You might contact Dr. Schiller about where he got them. To be honest, it doesn't sound too hard to find this from a non-fencing source, i.e. industrial suppliers, or even hardware stores.

But they were taped down onto a wooden surface, like a basketball court, no? They weren't taped down to concrete, right? Having 1x2m plates mounted on some cushioning material is what I have in mind. That would allow one to place the whole unit on top of any flat surface, including concrete.

The fact is, many large convention centers have concrete floors. You need to deal with that without having to schlub around a pile of carpet remnants.

[Barry Paul]

Leon Paul first develops the thin interlocking sectional pistes first used in the Atlanta Olympics. The perforated sheets give the perfect friction and due to the self cleaning holes the surface friction remains fairly constant. We made a sample rear line highlighted with L.E.D. and did some work on laser lines.

Unfortunately in France the chosen flooring is five bar tread plate a dreadful material which is very abrasive on shoes and becomes slippery as the surface becomes polished. As a result the French prefer a hard rubbered shoe which is O.K. on the tread plate but is slippery on other surfaces.

Other companies have made sectional piste from extruded sections. These had two problems 1. The section was two thin and normal use caused failure. 2. The surface was plain and the surface friction increased by shot blasting, absolutely not the correct thing to do. The surface is initially like sand paper and quickly becomes too smooth and dangerous. A delivery of such piste from a well know German company for a world youth in Hungary resulted in all the pistes having to be replaced after less than a year.

Leon Paul went on to develop active rebound piste with an internal core/centre of glass fiber. Due to the high cost of these piste cheaper ones have been developed. We now have a range of extruded aluminum sectional piste with surface raised lines. This is a compromise but gives a reasonable constant surface friction during its life.

A European company has developed a thin conductive rubber piste to lay down on wooden or hard floors, weight about 50 LBS, test are quite encouraging. At the moment the cost is too high and they retail for about £1,750 or $2800.

We will continue to work on our own conductive rubber piste and are working towards a 50% decrease in selling price.

We will have samples or all pistes at the U.S. Champs.

The S.E.M.I. has at last recognized that they need to regulate piste specifications and are as we speak developing protocols to test pistes against. This will open a Pandora’s Box; the measure friction is a combination of the piste surface structure and the shoe surface. So first they will need to produce a standardized shoe surface.
Barry Paul

[CvilleFencer]

The rubber piste sounds very cool. Could you not just bond the material that LP/Infinity uses for the non-metallic lames to a rubber mat and be done with it? The company that makes the Lame Material that Infinity uses should be able to do that as they can cover a plane or ship deck in RAM and have it still be durable. Why not do it to a piste? If you decide to use that very ill formed idea Barry I would like a shiny new LP kit for foil and epee as a thank you!

I am concerned about the Freakishly Inconsistent Europeans (FIE) regulating shoes however!

It just seems to lend credence to the theory that the FIE exists for no other reason that to sell licenses while keeping our sport in obscurity. Soon I expect it to be required that we all wear the $75 boxer shorts that Uhlmann/All-star make! Just one more thing to get me piste off I guess.

[R. Exnicios]

I too have been working on the idea of a different conductive strip. The Turkish fencing federation has developed an interlocking aluminum strip that is 1 cm high and relatively light. I think it is the same strip as PBT sells. I've never fenced on one but the surface seems much better than the cheese grater.

The interlocking material is extruded aluminum decking. I am positive that it is a stock material in some industry. Maybe boat building or some other industrial equipment.

The Conductive rubber mate is an interesting solution. Many factories and such use a conductive flooring to prevent static charges. I have also heard that airports and military bases us a conductive rubber matt to park and work on airplanes to prevent static charges.

As for the roll up copper; Duct taping things to the floor is not a solution in so many places. We have had several top facilities tell us flat out NO TAPE ON THE FLOOR!

A conductive strip for $1,000 that you do not tape down would sell like hot cakes.

Cheers

[DJ Apostrophe]

The 1/2" high aluminium strips are bad... I hate them now...

I was indifferent towards them until yesterday...

I was fencing Team epee at the Pomme de Terre (www.neusfa.org/pdt) and I sprained my ankle by my foot slipping off the edge of the aluminium strip. It sucks... It was hell to walk down stairs this morning...

-w

[DHCJr]

A couple of comments.

DJ, now you know why the FIE when raised (but not on platform) states to have them between 12 and 15 centimeters (4 - 6"). If it is shorter the foot does not have time to straighten out.

The static mats will not work for fencing as is. They are designed for Megaohms, not less than 5 Ohms resistance.

[R. Exnicios]

Originally posted by DHCJr
The static mats will not work for fencing as is. They are designed for Megaohms, not less than 5 Ohms resistance.

That's what I have been discovering. But apparently there is one that is highly conductive. I'm still waiting for a sample. I think it's made by 3m but I'll see what it looks like when it arrives.

Cheers

[Barry Paul]

'So first they will need to produce a standardized shoe surface'
This is not a standard shoe but a reference test surface to measure different piste surface coeficient.

D.J.
Are you sure the piste was half an inch 12 to 13 mm, it is very difficult to twist an ankle at such a low height, the dangerous piste are 25 mm to 100mm were the foot can be touching both the ground and the edge of the piste. This can twist the ankle over 30 degrees such that damage can be done as the fencers full weight is put ot the twisted foot. Barry Paul