Armorers at Summer Nats

[Capt. Slo-mo]

With the family tragedy occupying the Loomis clan (and we add our condolences to the other's) does anyone know what changes will be instituted at the Summer Nationals?

Can armorers at the USFA table fix gear? Will more be brought in to facilitate repairs?

Can USFA armorers set up their own "for fee" table?

Or do we just bring the liquid nitrogen sleeve for our Visa card to keep it from overheating while we pay for new gear at the vendors?

[retardedspleen]

USFA will most likly not bring in anybody extra to do free work, if your lucky, and can sweet talk the USFA armorers, then you can perhaps get smaller jobs done for free, and possibly larger jobs told how to do, so you can do it yourself. Only once have I had to pay money for my stuff, all the other times, ive either had a really good relationship with them (being an armorer myself, and i helped them out at Utah) i can get a lot of my stuff done for free, or they will tell me how, and i can do it.


Chris Triplett

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by retardedspleen
being an armorer myself

Well, Well, Well!

Show of hands, everyone. I say we chain Mr. Triplette to a table, keep a cooler of beer and an insulated box of pizza close to hand, and let HIM do all the repairs for the championships!

[epeemike81]

my opinion is that the fencers should know enough to do the type of armoring which needs to be done at a tournament. If you are having MAJOR issues at a competition, the problem is with your preparation or armoring BEFORE the competition.

-m

[JEC]

Agree with Mike! I have also helped in the armoring table at Nationals before. The armorers have always been a nice helpful group who will tell you how to get it fixed. However, when you have 30 people in line checking-in, do not expect lengthy answers.

[edew]

Originally posted by retardedspleen
USFA will most likly not bring in anybody extra to do free work, if your lucky, and can sweet talk the USFA armorers, then you can perhaps get smaller jobs done for free, and possibly larger jobs told how to do, so you can do it yourself. Only once have I had to pay money for my stuff, all the other times, ive either had a really good relationship with them (being an armorer myself, and i helped them out at Utah) i can get a lot of my stuff done for free, or they will tell me how, and i can do it.


Chris Triplett

The work isn't free, as you might know. The Loomises are paid by the fencers to fix things. They also pay the USFA a booth fee (which they get a substantial, say 100%, discount for providing the test weights and such to the referees).

I'm sure if the Loomises aren't around to fix things, either the vendors will set up a repair station which they will charge for, or some other enterprising entity will do the same.

[Mo]

Originally posted by epeemike81
my opinion is that the fencers should know enough to do the type of armoring which needs to be done at a tournament. If you are having MAJOR issues at a competition, the problem is with your preparation or armoring BEFORE the competition.

-m

True for older, experienced fencers BUT when parents are taking kids to their first national or any BIG first competition it can be very confusing.

Fencing is like anything, you have to learn the ropes. However, stuff happens, body cords break, lames go dead, someone steals your kid's weapons and you need to borrow one.

So maybe saying "if you are having MAJOR issues at a competition" is rather harsh.

A friend of mine took her son to his first meet in Saratoga. Because there were only two fencers from the club going there was not a coach. She was all alone the first day. She had no idea of all the things required. She had a less than pleasurable experience in spite of the advice she received before she left.
She needed understanding, not a smug attitude.

The armorers are necessary. When they are treated with dignity and respect, (and you helped set up the night before) they will do amazing things for you.

[retardedspleen]

Originally posted by edew
The work isn't free, as you might know. The Loomises are paid by the fencers to fix things. They also pay the USFA a booth fee (which they get a substantial, say 100%, discount for providing the test weights and such to the referees).

I'm sure if the Loomises aren't around to fix things, either the vendors will set up a repair station which they will charge for, or some other enterprising entity will do the same.

Often times they would fix something simple, or help you fix something for free. i brought a Body cord to them once, asked them if they could help me figure out what was wrong with it (i knew it was broken before i went to the armory check) and they not only found the problem, but fixed it, i asked them how much, they said no charge, as long as i recamended them. its kinda like "i scratch your back, you scratch mine" granted i needed it stiched up real fast, no problem, they did it, and i ended up paying the next morning, (4 inch hole stiched up) and i only paid like 3 dollars....that included having some lame materiel stiched over it, thats cheaper than if i had baught the stuff and done it myself, i will consider this virtuly free.


Chris Triplett

[retardedspleen]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
Well, Well, Well!

Show of hands, everyone. I say we chain Mr. Triplette to a table, keep a cooler of beer and an insulated box of pizza close to hand, and let HIM do all the repairs for the championships!

Id MUCH rather referee...even it it was epee... doing Armorer work wasnt ever my favorit thing to do.

I agree with Mike, fencers should have at least a basic knowledge of how to fix thing, blade, body cord, ect..


Chris Triplett

[edew]

Originally posted by retardedspleen
Often times they would fix something simple, or help you fix something for free. i brought a Body cord to them once, asked them if they could help me figure out what was wrong with it (i knew it was broken before i went to the armory check) and they not only found the problem, but fixed it, i asked them how much, they said no charge, as long as i recamended them. its kinda like "i scratch your back, you scratch mine" granted i needed it stiched up real fast, no problem, they did it, and i ended up paying the next morning, (4 inch hole stiched up) and i only paid like 3 dollars....that included having some lame materiel stiched over it, thats cheaper than if i had baught the stuff and done it myself, i will consider this virtuly free.


Chris Triplett

I also have had one of my lames stitched up. I paid $5.00 for the effort. I suggested to them a while back (maybe two years ago) to jack up the price and ask for payment. I think they're doing better and getting more business because of that.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by epeemike81
my opinion is that the fencers should know enough to do the type of armoring which needs to be done at a tournament.

Sure, for wizened old veteran fencers. ("Body Cords? [hawks tabacco into the barroom spitoon] Let me tell, ya, sonny, back in the Old Wesht, when we needed body cords, we climbed up on them thar tel-ee-graph poles, and cut our own!")

The average youth fencer, of which there will be legions at Austin, is probably not prepared for nor competent to be doing a lot of blade re-wiring, tip replacement, or mask stitching. Nor are they likely to have a sewing machine along to fix a four inch seam rip in a lame jacket. That's why it's especially comforting for newer fencers to know that there are some repair options available when they go to a big tournament like the Summer Nationals.

Here's a sociological experiment for you, Mike. Hang around the armory table mid tournament for a while and go up to each parent/fencer you see holding a broken or failed piece of equipment. In a loud, ringing voice, repeat your somewhat priggish statement quoted above to each of them. Let's see how long it takes you to be looking up at the convention center lights from the flat of your back.

Originally posted by epeemike81
If you are having MAJOR issues at a competition, the problem is with your preparation or armoring BEFORE the competition.

Actually, you could being saying THAT to the repair seekers, and still get just as laid out on the convention center floor.
I've seen 3 bodycords--two new--hacked apart in the same pool...the same number of epees go down in one bout. Stuff happens...even with the best of preparations.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
Sure, for wizened old veteran fencers. ("Body Cords? [hawks tabacco into the barroom spitoon] Let me tell, ya, sonny, back in the Old Wesht, when we needed body cords, we climbed up on them thar tel-ee-graph poles, and cut our own!")

right. because when people think of me, wizened, old, and veteran are the words that come to their minds... What exactly do you do at a local event?? surely there aren't armorers at every local tournament you host.

The average youth fencer, of which there will be legions at Austin, is probably not prepared for nor competent to be doing a lot of blade re-wiring, tip replacement, or mask stitching. Nor are they likely to have a sewing machine along to fix a four inch seam rip in a lame jacket. That's why it's especially comforting for newer fencers to know that there are some repair options available when they go to a big tournament like the Summer Nationals.

first of all, if you need to rewire a blade at a competition, I'd say it IS a problem of preparation. As for the stitching, surely you bring a sewing kit to events. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect fencers to be able to fix a tip problem. its nothing too complex... a tip, a spring, two screws... nothing nearly as complex as say... a seatbelt. Seatbelt: high tech ****! I understand youth fencers may not be able to do it themselves, but they must have a parent in the venue. Probably a quite supportive one at that. certainly its reasonable to expect they know how to use a screwdriver and a needle and thread. Again, I have to ask what you do at local events?

Here's a sociological experiment for you, Mike. Hang around the armory table mid tournament for a while and go up to each parent/fencer you see holding a broken or failed piece of equipment. In a loud, ringing voice, repeat your somewhat priggish statement quoted above to each of them. Let's see how long it takes you to be looking up at the convention center lights from the flat of your back.

Am I supposed to be surprised by the fact that average people are not only unprepared, but feel its perfectly reasonable to be so?? that doesn't change the fact that THEY were the one's who were unprepared. I have no sympathy, and don't particularly care one way or the other what they think. they want to pay somebody else to armor their gear, fine. hell, I'll do it! the bottom line is that I have NEVER used the services of a paid armorer at a competition. This was true before I could do all the things associated with armoring. I knew enough to make day of repairs.

Actually, you could being saying THAT to the repair seekers, and still get just as laid out on the convention center floor.
I've seen 3 bodycords--two new--hacked apart in the same pool...the same number of epees go down in one bout. Stuff happens...even with the best of preparations.

body cords hacked apart? brand new? go get your money back! As for three epee's going down in one bout, I would say that is a lack of adequate preparation. I fence with my epee's AT LEAST 4 days a week, every week, and they tend to have problems more serious than a missing tip screw approximately once every 2 months or so. to have three fail in one day is inconceivable to me. I suggest better armoring BEFORE the competition will eliminate these issues.

-m

[retardedspleen]

There is a reason the best fencer (young and older) dont have major problems like this, and arnt running around last minute (i need to completly rewire my epee!!!)

You shouldnt go to a tournament (national or regional) without chekcing ALL of your gear before you leave, to do so just isnt very logical. Sewing isnt really that difficult, ive sewn stuff on many ocasions, my first regional tournament i had to stich up my mask, i didnt have the stuff to do it, but i got it, ask around, im posative some other fencer will have it, and let you barrow/have some. Mike is correct, if you get a body cord, and it ends up broken in the first bout...you need to go back to the vender, and get it exchanged! also theres a reason you bring supplys, and if you can, get your gear checked ASAP, waiting 30 minutes before a competiton (to get your gear checked) with a mask that has holes in it, or body cords that are broken....this just isnt smart.

Learning how to repair body cords; SIMPLE
learning how to Balance your own blade; SIMPLE
learning how to make a foil or epee; slightly complicated (for most youth)
learning how to use needle and thread; also SIMPLE
take the time to learn how. may look complicated...ISNT
dont know how? ask, dont know who? any armorer at an NAC when they arnt working hard (although they may be slightly drunk )


Chris Triplett

P.S. mike...Aint George Carlin great? gotta love airline announcements!!

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by epeemike81
right. because when people think of me, wizened, old, and veteran are the words that come to their minds...[/B]

Sigh. Sarcasm is soooo wasted on the young. You're right...wizened and old are probably NOT the adjectives most people associate with you. The list of appropriate monikers, while not necessarily flattering, is voluminous.

Originally posted by epeemike81
What exactly do you do at a local event?? surely there aren't armorers at every local tournament you host.

Well, I usually get up about two hours before check in time. I generally shower, find clean underwear and high socks for my knickers...oh, wait, that's probably not what you meant. Our local events tend to be much shorter and easier than the Nationals. We try to have everything in working order, and have plenty of spares on hand. However, six pool matches and a couple of DEs over one afternoon doesn't have the same impact on the gear as six or seven back to back days of mammoth competitions at the Nationals.

Originally posted by epeemike81
first of all, if you need to rewire a blade at a competition, I'd say it IS a problem of preparation.

Good heavens, what planet do you fence on? You've never had a blade or a wire break during a meet? I've seen a bunch, and I don't even fence a weapon that HAS wires. A number of them were brand new, rewired just before the NAC meet. That's not indequate preparation of the weapon, it's just a bad break.

Originally posted by epeemike81
I understand youth fencers may not be able to do it themselves, but they must have a parent in the venue. Probably a quite supportive one at that. certainly its reasonable to expect they know how to use a screwdriver and a needle and thread. Again, I have to ask what you do at local events?

Many of the youth fencers come in groups with chaperones, seldom in a one child/one parent ratio. New parents can be especially helpless until they've been around the sport for a while. Maybe you were a paragon of armoring acumen at 12, but I've seen the look on the face of a normal 12 year old, stuck without a parent at an NAC, with all of his epees broken, and the coach nowhere to be found. It's not a pretty picture. Again, at a local meet, the cumulative impact is much less. We can normally share gear or body cords in a pinch. Over a two week competition, though, the wear and tear goes tends to go through a lot more gear.

Originally posted by epeemike81
Am I supposed to be surprised by the fact that average people are not only unprepared, but feel its perfectly reasonable to be so??

Are we supposed to be surprised that you feel entitled to denigrate anyone failing to meet your personal standards of armoring legerdemain? Why on earth do you think a newer fencer feels that it's perfectly reasonable to be unprepared? Many of them KNOW how ill-prepared they are to fix every item in their kid's kit...but it's not always something every parent or fencer is immediately comfortable or competent to do.

Originally posted by epeemike81
I have no sympathy.

No need to overstate the obvious. I've got a 12# bag of sympathy in the hall closet. I always try to take it with me to meets. Look me up at Summer Nationals and I'll cut you an oversized baggie to carry around with you.

Originally posted by epeemike81
the bottom line is that I have NEVER used the services of a paid armorer at a competition.

Bully for you. Does that entitle you to malign those who do?

Originally posted by epeemike81
body cords hacked apart? brand new? go get your money back!

It's sabre. The wrist is a target. The socket plug is close to the wrist. Wires break under a slash, whether they're one day or one year old. At the last Div 1 men's sabre meet, I'm told Spencer El had three body cords go down during the final, and two weapons break. At one point, he was reduced to asking the crowd for equipment to finish the bout. It happens. Tell you what...at Austin, go look him up and repeat verbatim to his face your personal theories of armoring inadequacy for those who have equipment failure.

Originally posted by epeemike81
As for three epee's going down in one bout, I would say that is a lack of adequate preparation. I fence with my epee's AT LEAST 4 days a week, every week, and they tend to have problems more serious than a missing tip screw approximately once every 2 months or so.!

Out of curiosity, do you ever actually hit anything with your epee ? Just wondering.

Originally posted by epeemike81
to have three fail in one day is inconceivable to me.

To loosely quote a famous movie hero: "You use that word a lot. I'm not sure it means what you think it means." It happens, and it's not always criminal negligence on the part of the fencer.

[DJ Apostrophe]

I will be more than happy to employ my skills as a Mr. Fix It for hire on the day's i'm not fencing in Austin. Just look for the 6'4" kid with dark hair wearing a maroon umass fencing t-shirt...
-w

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by DJ Apostrophe
I will be more than happy to employ my skills as a Mr. Fix It for hire on the day's i'm not fencing in Austin. Just look for the 6'4" kid with dark hair wearing a maroon umass fencing t-shirt...
-w

Epee fundraiser for next year?

-m

[Capt. Slo-mo]

I see an economic opportunity for your team!

"The U-Mass Tag-Team Armory Emporium" has a nice cachet. You can earn money and the fervent thanks of hundreds of ill-prepared, armoring impaired fencers.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

epeemike--

you-are-spoiled

parents? at tournaments? Morra's mother. what you forget about her is that not only is she Morra's mother, but she's also a fencer herself. Whtouche's mother. doensn't necessarily know what to do, or exactly what's going on, but she know who to ask, and how her son is doing. there are a couple other parents i occationally see, who mostly know who to ask, not what to do.

then some of us have less involved parents--

my dad, who never missed a gymnastics meet or field hockey game that my older sisters went to----- doesn't go to tournaments, couldn't pick out a body cord if you gave him my fencing bag (nevermind fix one), can't tell how i'm doing, and for that matter, can't even find a fencing venue.

my mom is worse.

(and my mom fenced in high school)

this is sad, this is pathetic, but, not every younger fencer is lucky enough to have parents that are terribly supportive of their sports. tonight i campaign for Pomme de Terre money. it involves telling my mom, giving her some time to cool off, then having my dad actually give me the money...

i didn't ask for the money beforehand, because with all the projects i was doing for school, they would have flipped.

(why does that make sense? you're right, there's not real logical connection. )

my family is comfortable finacially, my dad never works weekends, my mom works every other weekend and no other days of the week. neither could be bothered to take an interest in my gear or my sport.

as a result? my gear is not the best quality. I have to save up for a couple body cords at Pomme de terre- which i've desperately needed for a month. both of my sabres are frankensteins- made up of various parts of the three sabres i used to have (at the point that benji and i disected them and recombined, only ONE of them worked)... over the summer, half of the money i make is going towards fencing gear. i think. i may actually end up with decent stuff that fits. maybe. i hope, anyhow...

as to my parents? i've gotten used to their disinterest, and at this point, i'd prefer to not have to babysit them, and then go home immediately after, without going out to eat.

the last tournament i was at with them?

"mom, dad, i'm fencing now... "

[mom looks up, then goes back to her knitting, eventually leaving early, making my dad come back to pick me up 2 hours later]

that was the point at which i completely gave up.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Myrddins:

That is so sad.

Tell you what...epeemike no longer gets anything from my big bag of sympathy.

Find me at Summer Nats and I'll give you his share, instead. I'm glad you managed to persevere through their lack of support and continue on fencing with the king of weapons.

[Ramrod]

I'm with the Capt.

You get a big bag of sympathy from me too.

I'm well past the kid stage now but I remember my parents always being there, whatever I was doing.

Your continuning to fence is a tribute to your character. (applause for you)

---- It's also cool that you know the drill for getting money from them ----