Fencing & Nutrition

[Bjarne Höglund]

Is there anyone of you that got special ideas about nutrition and fencing.

Is there something I should eat more of? Something I should avoid?
Do I need extra suplements? If yes, what do I need?

Grateful for answer to my adress bjarne@simply-the-best.org

Best regards,
Bjarne

[Phillip Inoy]

"Bjarne Höglund" <144852@bredband.tiscali.se> wrote in message news:<v3hDa.562$4M.8175@news010.worldonline.se>...
> Is there anyone of you that got special ideas about nutrition and fencing.
>
> Is there something I should eat more of? Something I should avoid?
> Do I need extra suplements? If yes, what do I need?
>
> Grateful for answer to my adress bjarne@simply-the-best.org
>
> Best regards,
> Bjarne

Without question an increase of whey protein, Glucosamine, Chondroitin
and MSM.

Anything on the market which replenishes muscle glycogen FAST will
always help.

Protecting your knees by strengthening the quad insertions that are
currently weakest will help immensely.

Yours truly,

Phillip J. Inoy

[Holly E. Ordway]

>> Is there something I should eat more of? Something I should avoid?
>> Do I need extra suplements? If yes, what do I need?

I've improved my overall consistency over the past couple of years with
two nutritional approaches:

1) Eat as well as drink during a tournament. I typically don't feel
hungry while I'm fencing, so this is something I have to consciously do
- I do notice a big difference in my energy level over the course of the
event. I can't stomach "real food" (ie. sandwiches and things) when I'm
exercising, so I bring a bottle of sports drink and an energy bar (I
*adore* chocolate Power Bars, so I'll eat it even though I'm not feeling
specifically hungry.. Sometimes I bring a small yogurt.

2) Have a replenishing drink after I finish the tournament. There's a
30-minute window for optimal glycogen restoration after exercise -
ideally you want to have high-glycemic-index foods during that time (ie.
things that break down quickly into glucose), and a 4:1
carbohydraterotein ratio is ideal. I use a drink called Endurox that I
like quite a bit, and it really does help prevent muscle exhaustion and
helps improve my recovery. (It's marketed mostly to cyclists, actually.)
Incidentally, ordinary yogurt has almost exactly that 4:1 ratio, so it's
a great recovery food as well.

I eat a reasonably healthy, balanced diet, which is of course of the
greatest importance. I also take a multivitamin daily, basically as
nutritional "insurance".

--Holly

[wreckferret]

On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 18:35:38 -0500, dixit "Holly E. Ordway"
<OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net>:

>I've improved my overall consistency over the past couple of years with
>two nutritional approaches:

[snipped]

Agreed. I like snacking on bananas at competitions - they're a great
energy food and nutritious too, which saves on guilt...

I use energy drinks like Isostar and Maxim as well. If these are not
available, then your best bet is lukewarm (rather than cold) filtered
water.

--
wreckferret ICQ#163264
UK-based Epéeist/Sabreur Make spammers pay... use CruelMail!

[Colin Chock]

-I know most people are dehydrated. I assume fencers and other athletes are
less prone to dehydration. Or am I wrong? If I'm not wrong, are athletes
then prone to over-hydration? What is the more common problem? The bigger
problem?

[Carol]

wreckferret wrote:

> Agreed. I like snacking on bananas at competitions - they're a great
> energy food and nutritious too, which saves on guilt...

Bananas are the only thing I can stomach during a competition. They are
easily digestible and have a high glycemic index, so they are quickly
converted to glucose. They are also high in potassium, which helps manage
your cellular water balance (good for keeping hydrated) as well as staving
off muscle cramps.

[Carol]

Colin Chock wrote:

> -I know most people are dehydrated. I assume fencers and other athletes are
> less prone to dehydration. Or am I wrong? If I'm not wrong, are athletes
> then prone to over-hydration? What is the more common problem? The bigger
> problem?

Most people in the general population are dehydrated. This is because most
people don't drink enough water daily. Compound this with how many cokes and
coffees they drink in a day (caffiene is a diuretic -- for every one of these
you drink, you need to drink an additional glass of water in order to
maintain proper water balance).

Fencers and other athletes may or may not be less prone to dehydration -- it
depends on their nutritional habits. But most likely, fencers and athletes
would be better hydrated -- they tend to drink more water than the general
population.

Over-hydration. Now that is another thing. Yes, athletes can become
over-hydrated, and that causes another set of problems, by disturbing the
electrolyte balance. Electrolyte balance is crucial for proper heart
functioning.

You have to know what you should drink to hydrate you in order to not disturb
your electrolyte balance. At competitions, fencers usually choose to either
drink Gatorade or water to hydrate. The body is such that a 7% solution of
electrolytes is the closet to blood chemistry. Gatorade is at about a 15%
solution while water is at 0%. Most fencers that I know always dilute their
Gatorade in half with water -- so, most fencers, through their experience have
found the right answer.

However, what individually you should do depends upon how you sweat -- that
will tell you what you need to do. If you feel that your sweat is more
acidic, it means that you are throwing off more salts and should drink
straight Gatorade in order to replace the salts that are lost in sweating; if
you don't have the feeling that when sweat falls in your eyes and stings, then
it means that you should drink water.

The bigger problem: If you are at the extremes of the continuum, and drink
the wrong thing, you are just exacerbating the problem. For example, if you
sweat salts and drink water, you are further diluting your electolytes and can
cause heart problems; if you sweat only water, and drink Gatorade, you
increase your dehydration and experience muscles cramps.

The best answer for hydration is to use the half-half Gatorade-water mix, or
to use a electrolyte formula -- there are many different ones out there, such
as the 1/4 tsp salt, 1/4 tsp baking soda, 1/2 tsp sugar in a liter of water;
or the 2 tsp lemon juice in a liter of water -- I personally like the lemon
juice solution because lemons also have potassium in them; it helps for the
inter-cellular water transfer as well as for the muscle reaction.

[John Twernbold]

Carol wrote:
> Most people in the general population are dehydrated. This is because
> most people don't drink enough water daily. Compound this with how
> many cokes and coffees they drink in a day (caffiene is a diuretic --
> for every one of these you drink, you need to drink an additional
> glass of water in order to maintain proper water balance).

I agree it's good to drink plenty of water while exerting oneself, but
I've read that many of the above points aren't true. For starters,
there's enough water content (99% water, in fact) even in coffee and
sodas to offset any diuretic effects of the caffeine (although they may
not seem as "quenching"). Also, the notion that the general population
is dehydrated ("75% are dehydrated" is the most common claim) is a myth.
People living in temperate climates and working a desk job simply don't
need the 8 glasses of water a day that is often recommended by well-
meaning people and bottled water companies. (Athletes in the desert, of
course, are another matter. There is no rule of thumb for recommended
fluids intake since need varies so greatly.)

Another "urban myth" about water is the common claim that "by the time
you're thirsty, you're already dehydrated". Experts studying hydration
have found that the body reacts in under a minute to a need for more
water (although it is true that this thirst response is less sensitive
in the elderly). But for most people, drinking more water than they need
doesn't have any negative side effects, so many doctors are reluctant to
correct these misconceptions.

I'm no doctor, and I have no significant knowledge about nutrition and
proper hydration. I'm merely passing along what I've read, based on
studies by the USDA, the National Academy of Sciences, the National
Institutes of Health, Dartmouth Medical School, etc. And like I said, it
generally doesn't hurt to drink plenty of water, especially if you're
fencing. YMMV

--
John Twernbold
jtwernbold (at) yahoo.com

[Holly E. Ordway]

John Twernbold <jtwernbold@remove-this.yahoo.com> wrote in
news:Xns9392586A6B29jtwernbold@24.94.170.87:

> Another "urban myth" about water is the common claim that "by the time
> you're thirsty, you're already dehydrated". Experts studying hydration
> have found that the body reacts in under a minute to a need for more
> water (although it is true that this thirst response is less sensitive
> in the elderly).

I suspect that the truth may lie somewhere between the two extremes. I
have read that the thirst response lags somewhat behind the need for
hydration (logically enough), and that the degree of thirstiness isn't
necessarily representative of the actual need for hydration. For an
example from bicycling, I don't have any trouble keeping myself hydrated
on a sunny, hot day, but on a cold day I have to remind myself to drink
- the environmental cues to "be thirsty" aren't as strong, but my body
*does* still need the water. The same thing happens when I'm fencing in
a cool or air-conditioned room as opposed to a hot one.

--Holly

[Wolf]

> I suspect that the truth may lie somewhere between the two extremes. I
> have read that the thirst response lags somewhat behind the need for
> hydration (logically enough), and that the degree of thirstiness isn't
> necessarily representative of the actual need for hydration. For an
> example from bicycling, I don't have any trouble keeping myself hydrated
> on a sunny, hot day, but on a cold day I have to remind myself to drink
> - the environmental cues to "be thirsty" aren't as strong, but my body
> *does* still need the water. The same thing happens when I'm fencing in
> a cool or air-conditioned room as opposed to a hot one.

I suspect in really warm weather, a component of that is a psychosomatic
reaction to water usually being cold. Your brain wants it because it wants
to cool down. However, don't assume you need the same amount of water when
it's hot out. Often you need considerably more.

-Bill

[Holly E. Ordway]

"Wolf" <bussone@vt.edu> wrote in news:bbrdv9$611$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu:

> I suspect in really warm weather, a component of that is a
> psychosomatic reaction to water usually being cold. Your brain
> wants it because it wants to cool down. However, don't assume you
> need the same amount of water when it's hot out. Often you need
> considerably more.

Heh. Actually, in hot weather, the water rapidly becomes "tepid to hot",
and nothing like actually "cold" But it's WET!

Good point, though - when it's very hot, I usually bring two water
bottles on the same ride that I'd bring one water bottle for in more
temperate conditions. And I definitely drink it.

--Holly

[PAN CYAN]

you can do the reading on the suppliments.in addition to reg multivitamins.I
take the following;

CQ-10 anti oxidant and oxygenator, unloads the heart
Vit C allaround good guy
Vit E anti oxidant and oxygenator, unloads the heart
Alpha Lipoic acid, anti ox and regenerates Cand E
Flax oil or oil blends supplies EFAs for endurance and basic body needs

[Chris Hagen]

In article <Xns9392586A6B29jtwernbold@24.94.170.87>, John Twernbold
<jtwernbold@remove-this.yahoo.com> writes:

>
>I agree it's good to drink plenty of water while exerting oneself, but
>I've read that many of the above points aren't true. For starters,
>there's enough water content (99% water, in fact) even in coffee and
>sodas to offset any diuretic effects of the caffeine (although they may
>not seem as "quenching").

John has a good point; Things often get exaggerated, and misinterpreted:
Caffeine is SOMEWHAT over-demonized:

Having a Coke, or two or even 3, in the course of a day's competition isn't
going to knock you into heat-stroke, nonetheless the caffiene DOES have a
dehydrating effect, which CAN and SHOULD be compensated for by drinking other
NON-caffienated liquids...

More importantly, it should be noted that, if you routinely ingest some
significant number/doses of caffiene on a daily basis, disrupting that on the
day of competition may well be detrimental to your performance as well...

As often is the case, Moderation is the key.

> Also, the notion that the general population
>is dehydrated ("75% are dehydrated" is the most common claim) is a myth.
>People living in temperate climates and working a desk job simply don't
>need the 8 glasses of water a day that is often recommended by well-
>meaning people and bottled water companies. (Athletes in the desert, of
>course, are another matter. There is no rule of thumb for recommended
>fluids intake since need varies so greatly.)

Gratned, people labor under greatly varying circumstances, and obviously,
someone digging ditches in Death Valley is probably sweating a few buckets,
however, sitting in an air conditioned (i.e. de-humidified) office building is
certainly going to result in loss of fluid, as well, and it is the
condition/perception/action loop that results in dehydration: I think it
probably wise to consult a qualified uroligist before saying whether people
are/are not operating at hydro-deficit.

>I'm no doctor, and I have no significant knowledge about nutrition and
>proper hydration. I'm merely passing along what I've read, based on
>studies by the USDA, the National Academy of Sciences, the National
>Institutes of Health, Dartmouth Medical School, etc. And like I said, it
>generally doesn't hurt to drink plenty of water, especially if you're
>fencing. YMMV

I always like to see someone qualifying their statements.

[Zebee Johnstone]

In rec.sport.fencing on 11 Jul 2003 17:17:12 GMT
Chris Hagen <clhagenmn@aol.comspamx> wrote:
>
> More importantly, it should be noted that, if you routinely ingest some
> significant number/doses of caffiene on a daily basis, disrupting that on the
> day of competition may well be detrimental to your performance as well...

And drinking enough to show in a drug test could be embarassing.

Was it ever discovered if that pentathlete who went down for caffeine
really did get it from ODing on coffee?

Zebee

[Robert Pluim]

Zebee Johnstone <zebee@zip.com.au> writes:

> In rec.sport.fencing on 11 Jul 2003 17:17:12 GMT
> Chris Hagen <clhagenmn@aol.comspamx> wrote:
>>
>> More importantly, it should be noted that, if you routinely ingest some
>> significant number/doses of caffiene on a daily basis, disrupting that on the
>> day of competition may well be detrimental to your performance as well...
>
> And drinking enough to show in a drug test could be embarassing.
>
> Was it ever discovered if that pentathlete who went down for caffeine
> really did get it from ODing on coffee?

Wasn't the dosage high enough that he'd have had to have drunk
something like 200 cups of coffee? I'm sure the details are out there
somewhere.

Robert
--
For mail, remove NOSPAM and translate from French.

[William Marshal]

clhagenmn@aol.comspamx (Chris Hagen) wrote

> it
> >generally doesn't hurt to drink plenty of water, especially if you're
> >fencing. YMMV
>
> I always like to see someone qualifying their statements.

Yes...and I'm starting to read articles to the effect that many
athletes, runners in particular, actually drink TO MUCH water...and
that it can hurt them as badly or worse than being dehydrated. Real
dehydration, apparently, is a pretty rare thing---but overhydration is
fairly commonplace, if what I've been reading is correct.

As for me, I subsist almost entirely on soft drinks for my liquid
intake
( that and the water content in foods ). Fruit juices or water
occasionally, when the sweetness of the colas begins to cloy, but
seldom otherwise. No ill effects after almost 30 years of this
regimen...

[Chris Hagen]

In article <dc7987e.0307111601.73792d75@posting.google.com> ,
trebuchet30303@yahoo.com (William Marshal) writes:

>Yes...and I'm starting to read articles to the effect that many
>athletes, runners in particular, actually drink TO MUCH water...and
>that it can hurt them as badly or worse than being dehydrated. Real
>dehydration, apparently, is a pretty rare thing---but overhydration is
>fairly commonplace, if what I've been reading is correct.
>
>As for me, I subsist almost entirely on soft drinks for my liquid
>intake
>( that and the water content in foods ). Fruit juices or water
>occasionally, when the sweetness of the colas begins to cloy, but
>seldom otherwise. No ill effects after almost 30 years of this
>regimen...

(I'm sorry, I meant to mention this earlier!)

Certainly, you CAN drink too much, and most certainly, too much, too fast.

Obviously, there is NOT a direct pipeline from your stomach to your bladder, so
there's clearly potential to literally rupture you stomach (though it would
probably start coming back up on you, at some point...), additionally, and less
well known, is that you CAN overhydrate yourself, as previously mentioned, and
totally throw your electrolytes out of balance,

Finally, although I have only heard of one actual case, that involved the
reduced air pressure of air flight (i.e. altitude, ), which may have
accelerated & increased the effect, but an airline flight attendant (with some
significant intake of water, and minimal food) became over-hydrated, and
somehow experienced an intoxicating affect, and appeared drunk. She had to go
to a doctor to document her condition, so she would not be sanctioned by her
employer.

[Robert O. Waddoups]

William Marshal wrote:

>clhagenmn@aol.comspamx (Chris Hagen) wrote
>
>
>
>>it
>>
>>
>>>generally doesn't hurt to drink plenty of water, especially if you're
>>>fencing. YMMV
>>>
>>>
>>I always like to see someone qualifying their statements.
>>
>>
>
>Yes...and I'm starting to read articles to the effect that many
>athletes, runners in particular, actually drink TO MUCH water...and
>that it can hurt them as badly or worse than being dehydrated. Real
>dehydration, apparently, is a pretty rare thing---but overhydration is
>fairly commonplace, if what I've been reading is correct.
>
>

As an industrial hygienist for the Navy, I am constantly educating
individuals on heat stress, dehydration, and training. There is a good
article written by Mark Kovacs here:
http://www.dohealthnet.com/article1009.html
(From his web site - About the author: Mark Kovacs has a degree in
Exercise Science from Auburn University and is a certified
Health/Fitness Instructor through ACSM (American College of Sports
Medicine). Mark also works as a strength and conditioning coach with
numerous professional athletes in the NFL, NBA, NHL, ATP/WTA.)

Recent information I've been receiving from the sports medicine
community reports "sports drinks containing glucose or other sugars in
the form of simple or complex carbohydrates (okay - Gatorade, etc.),
should be cut with water 50/50." It seems that most athletes do
maintain a decent level of hydration, and these drinks are too strong in
electrolytes and carbohydrates for the athlete's body to absorb at a
decent rate to maintain a balanced body chemistry. The sports waters
without the carbohydrates do not seem to have the same affect of
unbalancing the body's electrolytes, but then you'd also have to fuel
your muscles with something like, say, bagels, bananas or grapes.
(Dang! I hate it when my mother is right!)

You are also correct in stating the recent literature believes athletes
can, and do, over hydrate. The studies I've read recently were on
marathon runners and cyclists. The thing to remember is, hydration is a
matter of what you drink starting as early as 4 days prior to the
competition (jury is still out on this, though - some even say 2 weeks
depending on the level of activity and body burden). However, it also
depends on your body's electrolyte composition (potassium, sodium and
calcium) which you should be consuming in your daily diet at regular
levels.

As others have stated - I'm not a doctor or nurse, I'm just reporting
information and studies that have been presented to me by professionals.

Brenda Waddoups

[Fencerbill]

In article <dc7987e.0307111601.73792d75@posting.google.com> ,
trebuchet30303@yahoo.com (William Marshal) writes:

>Yes...and I'm starting to read articles to the effect that many
>athletes, runners in particular, actually drink TO MUCH water...and
>that it can hurt them as badly or worse than being dehydrated. Real
>dehydration, apparently, is a pretty rare thing---but overhydration is
>fairly commonplace, if what I've been reading is correct.

I don't think comparing marathon runners with fencers is the most useful
comparison. Fencing is more stop start and exertion for short periods at
intervals. The marathon running is uninterrupted and I can well believe that it
is as possible to be over-hydrated as dehydrated.

I personally try to start tanking up an hour before practice/competition and
try to get half to three quarters of a liter of water down before the heavy
exertion starts.

I also use raisins and low-fat granola bars to keep my energy up, eating
something about every two hours.

But there is one basic hydration guideline that is unhealthy to ignore:

If you aren't going to the bathroom every two to three hours, you aren't
drinking enough. And it is better to stay ahead than try to catch up.

Bill Hall

[Jonathan Jefferies]

Fencerbill wrote:

>
> If you aren't going to the bathroom every two to three hours, you aren't
> drinking enough. And it is better to stay ahead than try to catch up.
>
> Bill Hall

Two to three hours!! You sure ain't a vet yet.

J.