Size 0 foil blades for kids... Really?

[DHCJr]

Barry, I'm surprised at you. You know better, if you were to check your full-length blades, what percentage would be no more than 35"? What would have been better is say approximately 35". I have been having a discussion with the Youth committee here about defining what is a number 2 and 0 blade.

From my experience, if they were to require blades to be less than 32", most #2 would be illegal. Leon Paul is one of the few companies that consistently mark your shorter blades in a consistent manner. Many manufacturers just make shorter blades. You would have a better idea than me, but from my experience, if you talked about the blade with no tip, it would be very close to 32 for a #2, but with the tip, that would be another matter.

The problem is you and us are the only ones that use inches. The rest of the fencing world uses centimeters as in 90cm or ~ 35.4".

I have seen parents buy what they were told were #2, only to have them disallowed because they didn't have a mark and someone arbitrarily would not allow them.

If we had a measurement to tell the fencers the maximum length of a blade not a number that might not be on the blade we would help the fencers.

I have not given the Youth Committee any number, for I wanted them to work it out themselves, but if I were to give a length I would say 83 or 84cm. 83 would allow probably around 90% of the #2 blades, while 84cm will allow virtually all the legitimate blades.

What is to stop a fencer from stamping a 2 on a full-length blade? If you stated it was too long, you would need a length and there is no length in the rulebook. If you arbitrarily stated 32" and they demanded all blades be checked and you found virtually all the blades, including tip and strengthener, were over 32", what could you do them, but allow that weapon.

[Barry Paul]

The question of blade length and regulation is quite complex as we can see from the above.

In the U.K. we first started with electric foil for Youngsters and the youth commtte after consultation and looking at France decided on size three blades which were 33 inches long or 840 mm long. (this is DHCJ recomended size 2) (I think that the committe made a mistake they thought that the size 3 blade was the same as the French used but in fact for this age group they used size 2 blades.) In the Uk we are slightly more relaxed than in the U.S. 32 inches is 838 mm but as long as the blade is not much longer than 840 every one is happy. Most of the smaller blades in the U.K. are supplied by Leon Paul and used in the Leon Paul Junior series so it is not a problem. I can see in the U.S you have a bigger problem with lots of different suppliers some who will put any size stamp on a blade to sell them. If their is no regulation then it is difficult to say they are in the wrong.

For Epee and sabre the U.K has standardised on size 2 blades copying the French.

What you need to do is decide an age /length amd min/max flexibility, put a time limit, say 2 years, allow blades which are 0.5 inch longer for this time then enforce your agreed standard. Needless to say we can supply any blade length the U.S wants.

Barry Paul MD leon paul

[edew]

Great. Get some #4 (~34 inches) maraging foil blades available. Send them to AFS in San Francisco. I'll buy a bunch.

Get them from BF if possible. Medium stiffness.

[DHCJr]

Eric,

Why do you think Barry, would deal with BF? Paul is one of the few majors, that actually have their own forges and doesn't just stamp on a name to protect the guilty.

But I will say that asking for a particular stiffness is nothing new at Paul. They were the first, that I know of that marked some of their blades with standard stiffness measurements based on the standard FIE test.

[Barry Paul]

DHC JR is spot on Eric you will be lucky to get a size 4 maraging blade. however fron us it will be Leon Paul made blade, if it was to a stiffness it would have to be a Flick master, expensive and you would have to ask our forging manager really nicely.

On the question of sizes DHCJr remarks made me discuss the matter with our genius Blade Manager Peter Thorning. who pointed out I was wrong. Although size 5 is about 35 inches we are metric in a blade length. Iwill get a table of sizes drawn up and let you know what measurements we are working too and what flexibility.

It must me remembered that to stop cheating your blade length should include the thickness of the guard reinforcement, otherwise the effective blade length can be increased by having a very thick reinforecement, which is what happened with epees 25 years ago. Barry Paul MD Leon Paul

[Barry Paul]

Below is some info pasted from a word document. If you want the original e-mail me at barry@leonpaul.com for a word copy.

U.K. Rules and custom for blade length, age of user and flexibility.

The following is the U.K. requirement.

l
Č Regulation blade sizes Junior Competitions FOIL EPEE SABRE
NAT Age group Category U10 SIZE 0 SIZE 0 SIZE 0
NAT Age group Category U14 or younger SIZE 3 SIZE 2 SIZE 2
NAT Age group Category U15 or younger SIZE 5 SIZE 5 SIZE 5
LPJS Category U9 SIZE 0 SIZE 0 SIZE 0
LPJS Category U13 or younger SIZE 3 SIZE 2 SIZE 2
LPJS Catergory 13 and older SIZE 5 SIZE 5 SIZE 5

Leon Paul Junior Series about 30 competitions all weapons run through out the year, with a different starting time hence the different age groups.


FOIL EPEE SABRE
Electric Non Electric Electric Non Electric Same
Length Flex Length Flex Length Flex Length Flex Length Flex
Size0 770mm 30
inches 770mm 770mm 765mm
# 90 to 120mm
Size2 820mm 32
inches 820mm 820mm 820mm
# 90 to 120mm
Size3 840mm 85 to
125mm
~ 33 inches 85 to 125mm
%
Size5 900mm * 55 to 95mm 35 inches 900mm
* 45 to 70mm 900mm
~ 45 to
70mm 880mm
* 40 to 70mm

* F.I.E. regulation.
# British Fencing regulation.
% British Fencing recommendation
~ Leon Paul Standard.

For Electric Foil and Epee Blades the length shown are blade length including a Leon Paul point complete
For non-electric foil blades the length shown are actual blade length not including any plastic/rubber button.

Barry Paul 17/06/03.

[inventorriz]

i am like 13 and i started at like 10 i say if u start with regualr heavy weapons you get used to the weight and it isnt heavy anymore dont use those 0 or 2's

[wflaschka]

I went out-of-pocket and got some Size 0 blades for my kid's class. I mounted the blade for one little girl, and the change really is remarkable. She was able to move the blade more quickly, she was able to hit on-target more easily. When she hit, she wasn't thrown backwards by the flex of the blade.

So, thumbs up. Thanks for all the pointers! Now, if only it were easy to find a size-0 French grip for kids.

[Princess]

Yes, my son is 5 and the coach said the sz 0-2 are best for kids his age. Now Y10 is another story, I guess whatever regulation says, is what you should do.

[Barry Paul]

If your unable to get size 0 blades electric or non electric, full length or crosse from our main American outlets Santelli or American Fencers you can get them online from Leon Paul.

[three_hundred_fifty_five]

Originally posted by wflaschka
...Is it a marketing ploy?...

No, it's for the really small people.

[Joe biebel]

For youth fencers, I think the most important aspect to a blade is its ability to be wielded quickly and accurately, not its length. Some of the Y-10, Y-12 fencers I have seen are 1/3 the weight and half the height of adult fencers. It makes a lot of sense to "scale down the equipment to match thier size.

My own personal experience is similar due to injuries in my fencing arm (which have since abated) that restrict the training I do and the torque I can exert on the weapon. I am using 3,4, and five length weapons again, but I constantly change the length, even using "0" blades occasionally, to help improve my awareness of distance and reach.

For children; the concept of a "scale" weapon is critical to developing good technique and a variety of moves that they feel competant using. The ability to make blade movements in reaonable periods of time is critical.

I have my son train with heavier blades (4 or 5 length) and even though he is now twelve, he prefers, and I believe, he is more dangerous (even with adult fencers) using "0" or "2" length weapons.

The advantages are many and undeniable. I think one of the reasons you can watch some amazingly technically advanded fencing in the youth categories, is because of the accelerated learning curve that short, light weapons afford these kids.

Joe B.

[wflaschka]

In my last post, I mentioned that I took the plunge and got some size 0 blades for my kids' class. It was a good idea, and I'm glad I did it.

Another student, about 9 years old, just got a size 0 electric, with a v0 (smallest) visconte handle. Again, the change is remarkable. The vendor was Fechtsport-Langenkamp, and the quality is extremely good. He took a lesson from me today, and his movements were fast, his hitting solid, and the German tip went ka-ching with each hit.

I have another child's electric coming from The Fencing Post, and I'm looking forward to seeing it. These little weapons are simply wonderful.