Big Project, Any Ideas?

[NewFencerRMe]

Okay, everyone, I would like to start off by saying thanks for having such a healthy enviorment here. Good to come from all those "YoU NeWb" gaming website to a new-person-friendly website. .

That said, I was thinking the people of fencing.net could help me with ideas for a big project (school ). I am doing an informative project in front of my peers about what else, fencing. I've got to relate fencing to seven of the eight multiple intelegences. For all of you who don't know the eight, I'll list 'em. Bodily/Kinestetic. Intrapersonal. Interpersonal. Mathematic. Science. Musical. Linguistic. Visual.

So, here are my ideas. For kinestetic (sp!?), I was thinking I would have three people from the class come up, and practice a couple of the drills (supplied by fencing.net, by the way.) Any specific drills I should do? Anything works, but anything easy that people will have interest in, and still have it be fun? You get the idea.

For intrapersonal, and interpersonal, I really have no idea. It's beyond me . . .

Sorry, going a little faster, but I'll elaborate a little later.

For mathematics, I was thinking I would calculate the foil's target area, put it into percents, and just confuse the heck out of the ignorant-in-math teacher. But pretty much, I'm just dividing up the target area.

Science . . . I'm thinking I will take all the possible metal an electric foil could be coated with. (I.E. all conductive metals, then narrow it down by assuming the fencer would want the foil lighter . . .)

Musical . . . I was going to have this be the odd-man out. If you guys have any ideas though, again, I would love to hear 'em. I can have it be something in the backround, or just take time out to present it.

Linguistic . . . for this, I was just going to give brief summary of fencing history. Talk about it a little. Any specifics you can think of?
I, obviously, researched fencing, but I was to make it appealing, and I'm worried that not everyone will be interested in me blabing about everything to do with fencing.

Spacial. I was thinking I would just do a big picture about the target of the foil. Lable the target, as well as the equipt fencer's equiptment.

That's all for now, again, I'll elaborate later, and ask more specific questions, but I figured I'd just throw it out there for now.

Thanks in advance!

[thyme_daniels]

for mathematics, you could do the probability of hitting in a target area. you could set up a target, divide the area into 4 squares and then randomly pick the square that the person should hit. they attempt to lunge at it, and it is recored as a hit or a miss. its up to you as to how many times you want to do it, though more is better...i have no idea if this makes sense. it is kind of like those target machines one sees at the NACS and nationals and stuff.
have fun with this project. it seems challenging, but fun.

[Wizardly]

My understanding of Gardner's Intelligences may be flawed, so bear with me. I assume you're trying to demonstrate how fencing utilizes 7 of the 8 intelligences. There's probably a lot of overlap...

Visual/Spatial - orientation of the blade, imagining execution of an action before it's performed, orientation of the target, distanc to target, range of an action

Logical/Mathematical - deductive reasoning about an opponent's reaction to an action (if I attack here, he will parry me here), determining an opponent's likely actions based on blade position

Verbal/Linguistic - Verbal explanation of coaching, review of action by director, associating moves with words

Musical/Rhythmic - Obvious, no?

Interpersonal/Social - Learning experience in a club, facing opponents, being directed

Intrapersonal/Introspective - The time on the strip, stuff you say to yourself while you're fencing

As for the natural sciences - there's just a TON here. Physics, of the body, of the blade, dynamics of the same, chemistry of the body, electronics of the strip (e.g. armory), tribology (sliding on the floor, tip hitting the surface and sticking/sliding), psychology (predicting opponent's reactions, recognizing their mental state), medicine (you warm up and stretch out for a reason, injury prevention).

[Catlady]

I too would relate to timing for the musical intelligence. You do know there are certain moves that are one, some are one and i/2, some are two. Kind of the same with notes , in 4/4 time a quarter note is one, a half note is two, an eighth note is 1/2 or and, etc. You could tell them about how time is counted on actions and then ask them to different times for you e.g. What action would count as one and a half (ballestra lunge).

I always like to related my projects to fencing too BTW. Everyone in my program is probably so sick of hearing about my fencing and my fencing buddies and my club that they'd like to throw something when I start talking about them again.

[dreadfoil]

I like the Wizards' the best, there's a lot there to go with; some other ideas you may want to include are:

For math you may want to generate some kind of a probability thing; for example 'in a pool of 5 fencers, one with a rating of A, one with a rating of B, C, D, E, the probabilities of each one beating the other?; their probable scores and outcomes for the end of the day, and predictions of their outcomes in the future?

For music: you may want to talk about fencings influence in theater and include music clips that you play in the background to add atmosphere;

Introspective - you may also want to discuss the fencer who keeps track of their fencing classes and bouts and decides how to improve their skills in order to beat a better opponent;

Verbal/linguistic - the fact that the sport spans many nations and that sometimes there are disputes over such terms as 'en garde' or 'on guard' touche or touch; the Italian language/French language/English language thing, and/or how they blend.

[Wizardly]

Those are some good ones too. Dreadfoils mathematical idea actually has a lot to do with this little Elo Method ranking game we've got going at my club. Actually generates expected scores based on numerical ratings and adjusts based on actual scores. Also used in chess and many online video games. What Catlady says is true. Movement in fencing is music. It's like dancing, except the goal, rather than moving and following music to produce an outcome, is instead to produce a movement that controls the rhythm to effect an outcome. Fencing time, establishing and changing tempo, interrupting your opponent's rhythm, timing...fencing is extremely musical. Then again, that's why I love this sport...it's extremely many things mental.

One more that occurred to me too: a cross betwee the linguistic, logical, and the introspective: the fencing journal. The who I've fenced, how I did, how I beat people, things I should work on, strategies I've used, etc...

[Craig]

Musical . . . I was going to have this be the odd-man out. If you guys have any ideas though, again, I would love to hear 'em. I can have it be something in the backround, or just take time out to present it.

I would use fencing tempo for this aspect.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

tempo is absolutely a great way to tie in music- i took years of music lessons as a kid, so now whenever i hear the word "tempo" in the terms of fencing, i get confused until i have the chance to process it.

change of tempo-- makes both fencing and music more effective...

capable musicians/fencers are those that can masterfully control the temp....

all that junk...

[drizzt_do_urden]

As has been noted by several replies, music and fencing do have a lot in common. The replies have mainly mentioned tempos and tempo changes. I think of it a bit differently, and relate the timing similarities in music and fencing to syncopation and odd meter (or meter changes) rather than tempo changes.

In music, syncopation and odd meter are used to catch the listener off guard rhythmically. Actual tempo changes in the BPM (beats per minute) are seldom used in music that is commonly listened to - pop/rock/jazz/blues/funk ect... Relating this to fencing, one is not actually increasing the tempo of attack or defense motions (i.e. increasing the number of motions per minute) but rather trying to attack at an odd place in the beat (syncopation) or create undpredictable phrase lengths (odd meter) to catch an opponent off guard.

Another correlation between music and fencing may be the ability to improvise. On a physical level, both music and fencing are learned by repetition of motion until one developes a kind of muscle memory of the actions. However, in actual performance context, both activities require the participant to be able to spontaneously execute motions in new sequences that he/she may have never actually rehearsed, based on stimuli the fencer/musician perceives around themselves.

Anyhow, there is my take on fencing and music similarities.

[magma]

addendum to thread about music and movement, there's probably a lot written on the subject; some of the classical forms of movement include waltz with a 3/4 time and then there are unusual tempos such as 5/4 a Jazz count, but we may speculate, is the better fencer more able to think outside of the box? in 5/4 for example, while their counterpart may be more in keeping with 3/4. But then there are those who can 3/4 consistently and all of their movements are correct, so they go on to victory, whatever rhythem they choose. I'd better go now. I couldn't log in as dread today I misplaced by pw just for a moment, it's around the house somewhere.

I have to do a drawing assignment. Now, for visuals, I want to also include the Visual Arts. Only because I've been dabbling in art for a while and now am taking a more formal class. There are some people who believe that art uses a different part of the brain, making it more difficult to fence. I feel it is the opposite. The brain is trained to view the figure in it's entirety. For example in a recent class, we had to draw the figure in 5 minute poses; it makes you tap into the figure very quickly.

[Wizardly]

You're quite right about fencing requiring at least some skill visually. Take the flick to the back for instance. You're essentially attacking a hidden object. Sneaking shots around guards in epee and saber are similar in this respect. Processing possible targets requires a degree of "where it is now and where it will be." I'd venture to say it's even slightly advanced since you're also trying to maneuver an object that is not a part of your own body, projecting some 36 inches or so from you hand, around the form in front of you towards a target, manipulating not just vectors but curves in some cases. And this is considered a basic skill: bladework.

[NewFencerRMe]

Thanks for all that input! I'm glad you guys jumped on me about the music thing. I will definatly add that part to the presentation, and drop science, although I actually need to represent a piece of music! I think. "Indicate the rhythmical patterns in... " is one of like 20 suggestions for the Musical/Rhythmic section of the presentation. Do you think if I explained how using off beat attacks, as well as keeping a self beat can drastically improve your fencing ability? Or do you think I'm reading it incorrectly . . .

For intrapersonal, I was thinking I would relate fencing to a more physical version of chess. I know, I know, this has been done many, many times before, but no one in my class knows that : P.

I'm redoing Kinesthetics, because I talked to my teacher about it, and he feels that I should have others come up and try moves, but me show them how. I was thinking, with the time alloted, that I should have five people come up, and all try and lunge in just a general direction. Nothing fancy.

But that still leaves me with interpersonal. Maybe I could ditch that, if I could think of something better for science. I found that there isn't really any good information on what types of metals are used to coat foils for electric fencing, unless people of fencing.net know the answer to that. So, overall, any specfic ideas for science? Or Interpersonal.

Thanks again for all the input, and convincing me to add in musical. I'm really glad that there is a community where someone can come in with a homework assignment, and get input from people who are actually willing to help. Thanks again, and again I am impressed with the enviorment created by you people@!

[Zelda]

For Science you could do a reaction time measurement. Something like you yelling lunge and seeing how quickly people lunge.
Interpersonal....you could look at how the traditions of fencing originated as a way of acknowledging your oponnent, ie the salute, referees etc. And how it is tied into respect.
If I have totally misunderstood what you are doing please ignore me!

[NewFencerRMe]

Thanks for the input Zelda, and I think you hit the nail's head. I really like the interpersonal idea, considering that I'm struggling with that one the most. As for science, my teacher would probably consider that more of a kinestetic. Thanks again, and I'll check out that interpersonal stuff with my teacher tomorrow, run it by him.

[drizzt_do_urden]

Here is a suggestion for an application of the music part of your project.

Get a drummer to play a groove in 4/4 time. After listening to this, have him play the same groove, but have him randomly interject measures of 3.5/4 time (also called 7/8). Listen to the effect, which should be that some phrase start at surprising times for the listener.

Then compare it to the following fencing exercise: Have two fencers face each other, one is the designated attacker and one is the defender. The attacker can only advance, retreat, or lunge. The defender can only advance or retreat. The object for the defender is to keep distance by following the attackers footwork, and to stay as close as possible without getting hit by the attackers lunges. (No parries allowed, this is a footwork/timing/distance drill). After the two fencers get used to this drill, then tell the attacker (secretly so the defender doesn't know) that he/she can now use a false retreat/lunge in addition to the other footwork to syncopate the "rhythm" and (hopefully) catch the defender by surprise.

[drizzt_do_urden]

I should have added that you can draw the following conclusion from the previously mentioned experiment: Both examples use rhythmic syncopation to disguise the start of an action - in fencing the start of an attack, in music the start of a new musical phrase or sentence.

[NewFencerRMe]

Thanks for the input, again. I think that's a good idea, we have a couple of good drummers in the class -- maybe I'll just ask them. And if that falls through, I will simply just explain why keeping a tempo is so important to fencers. Either way will work, although I find your more interesting, so I'll give it a shot.

Other then that, I'm home all day working on the project, at least that's the plan. I'll type up everything I'm going to do, and I'll probably post it just to run everything by you guys.

[a517dogg]

for mathematical thinking, don't do probabilities or anything like that, because probabilities don't really come into play in fencing. do logical thinking, which does come into play in fencing. when you're fencing, you don't hink "i have 5/8 chance of hitting this flick", you think "since i hit that flick last time, he'll parry it this time, therefore i feint flick do something else".

[a517dogg]

for spatial, think about the spatial awareness needed to hit targets you can't see (behind the bellguard, over the back, etc) and also the ability to watch the feet and hand at the same time.

[RMasque]

Have you thought about doing the "electrical" aspect of fencing for your science part?

With all the completing of circuits and grounding, etc. I think it might be just what your teacher is looking for.

Oh, and good luck.